Jeff H

**SOLVED!** Nothing more than a bad battery but the battery fooled me.

Been a while since I have been here, but no money for mods and no problems I couldn't solve - until yesterday. This is stumping me because it's such a simple problem and everything seems to check out. The Jeep won't crank, simple enough, right?

Drove to town Thursday - no problems.
Came home, parked, unloaded groceries.
Moved the Jeep a couple hours later - no problems.

No rain, no damp weather at all, no unusual anything going on outside.

Tried to start it Saturday morning and get the dreaded "CLICK!"

Battery reads 12.5V.

Starter relay in the power distribution box pulls in and gets power all the way to the "S" terminal, solenoid "clicks." That eliminates anything upstream, like the NSS, fuse, ignition switch, etc. I even pulled the relay, checked the coil, checked contacts (they change state when the coil is energized), but that was redundant because it pulls in when it should and closes the circuit to the "S" terminal.

Have 12.5V at the power terminal on the solenoid, from the battery.

Jumped the power terminal to the motor terminal and nothing - not even a spark.

Checked voltage drop across (+) cable to power terminal on solenoid and got a few mV. This is a clean and well-kept (my wife's) vehicle and there is no grunge, no corrosion on the cables or clamps/terminals.

Bypassed the cable to the power terminal with a jumper cable and tried to crank just to see if the voltage drop test fooled me. Still just a "click."

Removed the 13 month old rebuilt started and the guts of the solenoid twisted when I removed the power cable. Weird.

Bench-tested ok so I thought that something inside the solenoid was open and then closed when I twisted the guts but didn't want to twist it back and reinstall. Was given a warranty replacement, which I forgot to have them bench test before I left since I was so happy they didn't grouse about replacing it.

Installed the new rebuild, cleaned the (-) cable ground points on the body and block, cleaned the ring terminals, cable clamps, posts, etc. All looked very good and were tight to begin with so I didn't expect much to change.

Exact same thing - "click."

So, if the starter relay is pulling in and giving me 12V at the "S" terminal and I have 12V at the power lead on the solenoid, it seems it would be the starter. Now, I don't even believe what I thought I already knew and just hope I am overlooking something really dumb.

I even popped the plastic rivets on the splash guard under the engine compartment and turned the engine with a breaker bar and socket thinking it was tied up - how it could have been, I have no idea but when you put 12 directly to the power terminal on the motor side of the solenoid, something should happen.

Since I have tried to crank this thing a hundred times in the last two days, I have noticed things that I don't know are normal or "new." Since it always fires right up and runs, I start it, let go of the key and we're off.

When I get the "click," and let go of the key (now in run pos'n), the brake light comes on very dimly (no ABS and the parking brake is not on). If I try to crank it right after having tried once, the horribly load and annoying BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, after inserting thee key and before starting, is weak or non-existent. If I hold the key in the start pos'n after the click, I hear a very faint "rrrrrrrrrr" noise from the engine compartment. It's not the fuel pump, I can hear that coming from behind.

So, everything indicates a bad starter but the first one, I believe, was OK.

Does this sound like something anyone has experienced or am I losing my mind?

Oh, I have also searched for two days and "no" doesn't seem to be a good search word. I get a lot of hits for "crank" and "won't start" but not much on "won't crank." I did find a 1500 page service manual but the starting circuit is the same as what I have for the '98.

Turbo X_J

TLDR.
Break it down to a couple of concise sentences, doesn't do this, so I tried this type of thing.

DFlintstone

This is a long-shot, but I did see it once. The (Delco) alternator in my little Case dozer was not grounding! It was bolted on there tight as could be but wouldn't charge. I clamped a jumper on it and battery neg and BINGO. 14 volts. I guess a layer can form even on stuff like that. Btw, I also saw it mentioned on a Jeep starter. Pretty easy to check if you have a set of cables!

Jeff H

That would make sense but I did try that. Not easy clamping anything on the starter but I may try it again. They put a dab of paint on all the screws and bolts and I would probably void the warranty.

The starter is grounded to the engine - removed the old one, cleaned off the already clean area where it touches too. There's a lot of contact area on a starter too.

Jeff H

I skipped a lot of things I looked at and tried in the first post, believe it or not. Boiling it down to what one would see who just walked up to it:

Turn key to "start" - just get a "click."

Battery is at 12.5V.

Tried to jump it anyway and still just a "click."

Jumpered +12V from battery terminal to "S" terminal on starter - "click."

Jumpered (shorted) two big terminals on starter - nothin', not even a spark.

Jumpered +12V from battery (jumper cables) to power ("+ batt.) terminal on starter solenoid, tried to start w/key - "click."

Pulled starter - bench tested OK at the parts store.

Took a "new" one home anyway and - "click."

The starter relay in the power distribution center closes and sends 12 to the "S" terminal when it is suppossed to. Makes sense - I get the "click."

I can only get the "click" once and have to wait several seconds.

Jeff H

....and, THANK YOU, Turbo X J and Dflintsone for jumping in!

DFlintstone

I'd put an ohm-meter between the engine and bat neg. (look for an ohm or so) That breaded strap off the the back of the head is probably bolted to paint, and the ground cable from the battery goes where it's often oily/grungy. Again, something easy to rule out. (or again, clamp your jumper between the engine and bat neg)

Jeff H

I missed that one but I will try it tomorrow. From the negative clamp on the battery, there are two leads going directly to the block. I removed and cleaned them both. There is a third going to the right fender well and I cleaned that one as well.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I measured the resistance from the (-) terminal to the starter and had less than two ohms. All the cables I have checked were clean and had tight terminations but I cleaned them anyway.

Jeff H

OK, Dflintstone, even though I was certain I had good ground - never rule anything out when troubleshooting, right? I cleaned and tested the woven metal ground from the head to the firewall and I used the jumper cables again to ground to the starter but didn't trust the connection, so I made a cable with ring terminals, mounted one end to a starter mounting bolt and the other to one if my previously tested, cleaned, tested again block grounds. If noting else, the cables and grounds all got a thorough goin' over.

Hit the key - "click."

Having tried to jump it from the '98 (with 275k+ miles on it) already, I tried something different this time. I pulled the '98 up and disconnected the battery clamps from the dead '01 and connected them directly to the '98's battery via jumper cables (saving the effort of removing the batteries to make a swap), hit the key and BINGO! The engine was running even before I noticed it crank.

Here's my dumb question:

Is it possible to have a "bad" automotive battery still read over 12VDC, take and hold a charge, but not have the ability to supply the current required to turn the starter?

Jeff H

Now that I have posted for all the world to see what a moron one can be,....

It was just the battery. Never gave the least clue of giving in or being tired, just absolutely no cranking amps (well, it tested at 100), read 12.5V, everything like headlights, power windows, blowers, etc worked but not enough left to even start to crank.

DFlintstone

Well, not that I am the Be-All, End-All Battery Guru....A trick Question! Taking and holding a charge would mean that energy is then there, available to be used. A fully charged lead/acid battery has about 2.2 volts/cell, fully charged at 78*. That actually works out to 12.7 volts, well rested under zero load or charge. What I mean is if it's not holding 12.7, it's not holding a charge.

I've been off grid using batteries for about 34 years. My "last set" from 2010, No mater what charge they get, let'm rest and 12.25 is the reading. Toast. I have yet to rig up a little load tester, say 4, 5 amp headlights, to gauge how long say a 220 amp/hr set takes to drop to a (resting) 11.5, 11.8 volts. (meaning it's about 1/2 down, where you stop, and charge). Would expect about 10 hrs @ 20 amps on a new set. (I say "set" because the deep cycle marine commonly are 6V) If they made them as one, you wouldn't be able to pick it up.

Anyway Idk. Last time I needed to figure if it was my starter or something else I hooked my meter right to the post on the solonoid and juiced the green (sol) wire. It stayed over 12 volts. I'm thinking yours didn't.

Whops! > "I made a cable with ring terminals, mounted one end to a starter mounting bolt and the other to one if my previously tested, cleaned, tested again block grounds." I had meant to test and rule out the remote possibility! Glad you got it!