It's not the solenoid, it's the gas flow. Help!
01-12-2012, 11:26 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
It's not the solenoid, it's the gas flow. Help!
OK, brief summary. 1999 Jeep Cherokee Sport, 6 cylinder
The car was running ok, then stalled out & would not start again. This was just after putting gas in the tank. I thought it was the starter solenoid. Bought the part. Could not get in in. Could not get the bolts loose on the starter. Gave up. Car towed to a shop to have the solenoid installed for me. The mechanics determined solenoid and starter are fine. They were able to get the car to run for a few seconds by spraying brake fluid into a hose on the engine. The disconnected the fuel line at the gas tank and found that the fuel pump would squirt only a small amount of fuel out of the gas tank. They also determined that the fuel pump is working properly. It's only two years old. I had the car towed home, as I cannot afford to have the gas tank removed so as to explore the problem further.
What is the problem??? Is the fuel filter clogged? I put some fuel system cleaner in the gas tank hoping that it might unclog the filter. My understanding is that when I turn the key halfway, but not far enough to make the engine crank, the fuel filter runs for a few seconds. Any chance if I do that repeatedly the cleaner will be drawn in to the filter and maybe clean it out?
Any advice will be much appreciated, as I am baffled. For financial reasons, I need to fix this myself if at all possible.
The car was running ok, then stalled out & would not start again. This was just after putting gas in the tank. I thought it was the starter solenoid. Bought the part. Could not get in in. Could not get the bolts loose on the starter. Gave up. Car towed to a shop to have the solenoid installed for me. The mechanics determined solenoid and starter are fine. They were able to get the car to run for a few seconds by spraying brake fluid into a hose on the engine. The disconnected the fuel line at the gas tank and found that the fuel pump would squirt only a small amount of fuel out of the gas tank. They also determined that the fuel pump is working properly. It's only two years old. I had the car towed home, as I cannot afford to have the gas tank removed so as to explore the problem further.
What is the problem??? Is the fuel filter clogged? I put some fuel system cleaner in the gas tank hoping that it might unclog the filter. My understanding is that when I turn the key halfway, but not far enough to make the engine crank, the fuel filter runs for a few seconds. Any chance if I do that repeatedly the cleaner will be drawn in to the filter and maybe clean it out?
Any advice will be much appreciated, as I am baffled. For financial reasons, I need to fix this myself if at all possible.
Last edited by Cameron58; 01-12-2012 at 11:30 PM.
01-12-2012, 11:30 PM
#2
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Year: 1989 xj sport 2dr
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 12 hole bosch Injectors
OK, brief summary. 1999 Jeep Cherokee Sport, 6 cylinder
The car was running ok, then stalled out & would not start again. This was just after putting gas in the tank. I thought it was the starter solenoid. Bought the part. Could not get in in. Could not get the bolts loose on the starter. Gave up. Car towed to a shop to have the solenoid installed for me. The mechanics determined solenoid and starter are fine. They were able to get the car to run for a few seconds by spraying brake fluid into a hose on the engine. The disconnected the fuel line at the gas tank and found that the fuel pump would squirt only a small amount of fuel out of the gas tank. They also determined that the fuel pump is working properly. It's only two years old. I had the car towed home, as I cannot afford to have the gas tank removed so as to explore the problem further.
What is the problem??? Is the fuel filter clogged? I put some fuel system cleaner in the gas tank hoping that it might unclog the filter. My understanding is that when I turn the key halfway, but not far enough to make the engine crank, the fuel filter runs for a few seconds. Any chance if I do that repeatedly the cleaner will be drawn in to the filter and maybe clean it out?
Any advice will be much appreciated, as I am baffled. For financial reasons, I need to fix this myself is as all possible.
The car was running ok, then stalled out & would not start again. This was just after putting gas in the tank. I thought it was the starter solenoid. Bought the part. Could not get in in. Could not get the bolts loose on the starter. Gave up. Car towed to a shop to have the solenoid installed for me. The mechanics determined solenoid and starter are fine. They were able to get the car to run for a few seconds by spraying brake fluid into a hose on the engine. The disconnected the fuel line at the gas tank and found that the fuel pump would squirt only a small amount of fuel out of the gas tank. They also determined that the fuel pump is working properly. It's only two years old. I had the car towed home, as I cannot afford to have the gas tank removed so as to explore the problem further.
What is the problem??? Is the fuel filter clogged? I put some fuel system cleaner in the gas tank hoping that it might unclog the filter. My understanding is that when I turn the key halfway, but not far enough to make the engine crank, the fuel filter runs for a few seconds. Any chance if I do that repeatedly the cleaner will be drawn in to the filter and maybe clean it out?
Any advice will be much appreciated, as I am baffled. For financial reasons, I need to fix this myself is as all possible.
01-12-2012, 11:46 PM
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the gas tank doesnt need to be dropped to access the pump, and yea sounds about the same as what happened when my pump **** the bed, be sure to pull the pump to compare with the new pump as there are 2 models as i found....had to replace mine in some small town 3hours from home, whole ride home it ran...just not great, so pulled it took it back to the same company near my home and the parts guy says oh yea there are 2 versions that have different pressures.
01-13-2012, 07:37 AM
#5
A couple of thoughts...
1.) If your mechanic is spraying brake parts cleaner into your engine to get it to start...find a new mechanic.
2.) If your mechanic is disconnecting fuel lines to check for proper fuel pressure (49psi +/-5psi) instead of using a fuel pressure gauge...find a new mechanic.
Your pump assembly is equipped with 2 sock style filters. Both can be replaced, but were getting ahead of ourselves.
The first thing you need to do is verify that you are getting 12vDC to the pump.
Do you own a multimeter?
If the answer is yes, then start checking for the proper voltage at the fuel pump socket in the PDC in the engine bay. Remove the relay and check for voltage at the sockets the correspond to pins 30 and 87 of the relay. You should get approx. 12VDC.
If not, check for a blown fuse in the PDC (#21, 15amp).
If the fuse is good, try swapping in a known good relay, you can borrow one from the Aux. Fan position in the PDC.
Try those suggestions and report back what you find.
1.) If your mechanic is spraying brake parts cleaner into your engine to get it to start...find a new mechanic.
2.) If your mechanic is disconnecting fuel lines to check for proper fuel pressure (49psi +/-5psi) instead of using a fuel pressure gauge...find a new mechanic.
Your pump assembly is equipped with 2 sock style filters. Both can be replaced, but were getting ahead of ourselves.
The first thing you need to do is verify that you are getting 12vDC to the pump.
Do you own a multimeter?
If the answer is yes, then start checking for the proper voltage at the fuel pump socket in the PDC in the engine bay. Remove the relay and check for voltage at the sockets the correspond to pins 30 and 87 of the relay. You should get approx. 12VDC.
If not, check for a blown fuse in the PDC (#21, 15amp).
If the fuse is good, try swapping in a known good relay, you can borrow one from the Aux. Fan position in the PDC.
Try those suggestions and report back what you find.
01-13-2012, 09:26 AM
#6
Member
Thread Starter
OK, I'll these suggestions. I'll have to charge the battery first, as it is dead from me trying to start the car. Some questions -
-Why is it a bad idea to start the care with brake parts cleaner?
-The pump was replaced at Midas several years ago. They told me the fuel pump is inside the gas tank, so the only way to replace it was to remove the gas tank. Thus, I spend $1000 getting it replaced. Did they scam me?
- If the fuse is blown, does that mean I have to figure out why the fuse blew? Does that mean there is some bigger problem, and the blown fuse in only a symptom of it?
-Why is it a bad idea to start the care with brake parts cleaner?
-The pump was replaced at Midas several years ago. They told me the fuel pump is inside the gas tank, so the only way to replace it was to remove the gas tank. Thus, I spend $1000 getting it replaced. Did they scam me?
- If the fuse is blown, does that mean I have to figure out why the fuse blew? Does that mean there is some bigger problem, and the blown fuse in only a symptom of it?
A couple of thoughts...
1.) If your mechanic is spraying brake parts cleaner into your engine to get it to start...find a new mechanic.
2.) If your mechanic is disconnecting fuel lines to check for proper fuel pressure (49psi +/-5psi) instead of using a fuel pressure gauge...find a new mechanic.
Your pump assembly is equipped with 2 sock style filters. Both can be replaced, but were getting ahead of ourselves.
The first thing you need to do is verify that you are getting 12vDC to the pump.
Do you own a multimeter?
If the answer is yes, then start checking for the proper voltage at the fuel pump socket in the PDC in the engine bay. Remove the relay and check for voltage at the sockets the correspond to pins 30 and 87 of the relay. You should get approx. 12VDC.
If not, check for a blown fuse in the PDC (#21, 15amp).
If the fuse is good, try swapping in a known good relay, you can borrow one from the Aux. Fan position in the PDC.
Try those suggestions and report back what you find.
1.) If your mechanic is spraying brake parts cleaner into your engine to get it to start...find a new mechanic.
2.) If your mechanic is disconnecting fuel lines to check for proper fuel pressure (49psi +/-5psi) instead of using a fuel pressure gauge...find a new mechanic.
Your pump assembly is equipped with 2 sock style filters. Both can be replaced, but were getting ahead of ourselves.
The first thing you need to do is verify that you are getting 12vDC to the pump.
Do you own a multimeter?
If the answer is yes, then start checking for the proper voltage at the fuel pump socket in the PDC in the engine bay. Remove the relay and check for voltage at the sockets the correspond to pins 30 and 87 of the relay. You should get approx. 12VDC.
If not, check for a blown fuse in the PDC (#21, 15amp).
If the fuse is good, try swapping in a known good relay, you can borrow one from the Aux. Fan position in the PDC.
Try those suggestions and report back what you find.
01-13-2012, 09:35 AM
#7
Brake parts cleaner is a really strong solvent. I hate the idea of spraying it into a motor.
Did they scam you? Tough to say. The cost of repairs such as this need to be compared to the amount of work involved. Does a heart Surgeon deserve to be paid $$$$ for his services? basically it boils down to what you can do yourself and what you have to take to a pro to have done. Do I think $1k is a little too much...yes I do.
Fuse blow for 2 reasons.
A direct short to ground in the circuit.
A constant load for an extended period of time at or near the fuses rating. Typically fuses are are rated at 125" of the normal ampdraw on any particular circuit.
A blown fuse should always be investigated and the problem corrected to prevent a re-occurance...and NEVER install a larger fuse for any reason what so ever.
Did they scam you? Tough to say. The cost of repairs such as this need to be compared to the amount of work involved. Does a heart Surgeon deserve to be paid $$$$ for his services? basically it boils down to what you can do yourself and what you have to take to a pro to have done. Do I think $1k is a little too much...yes I do.
Fuse blow for 2 reasons.
A direct short to ground in the circuit.
A constant load for an extended period of time at or near the fuses rating. Typically fuses are are rated at 125" of the normal ampdraw on any particular circuit.
A blown fuse should always be investigated and the problem corrected to prevent a re-occurance...and NEVER install a larger fuse for any reason what so ever.
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01-13-2012, 07:25 PM
#8
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damn that sucks, my good ole '89 if it fails i can have it out and spare one in with in the hour on the trail....and thats if im takin my time.
and yea didnt even catch that part bout brake fluid being sprayed into the engine......WTF. SeriousOffroad is thinking brake clean solvent, OP said brake fluid so not sure what OP ment but either way WTF!......are you sure the mechanic wasnt spraying ether/starting fluid into the engine? that would make more sense.
and yea didnt even catch that part bout brake fluid being sprayed into the engine......WTF. SeriousOffroad is thinking brake clean solvent, OP said brake fluid so not sure what OP ment but either way WTF!......are you sure the mechanic wasnt spraying ether/starting fluid into the engine? that would make more sense.
01-13-2012, 07:35 PM
#9
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Good God I hope so. Brake cleaner fluid smells like rubbing alcohol and, unless I am mistaken, is horrible on anything rubber, and brake fluid would just be wierd, as i dont think it is combustable, at least in that form. This is a wierd situation, and I am hoping the OP had a brain fart and just couldn't think of the right word...
but to answer your question, yes, 1000 bucks is far to much for something you are completely capable of doing yourself. I think in total for my 1980 Camaro it took me about an hour to change the fuel pump (in front of vehicle) and fuel sending unit (in the gas tank) and get her running. Albeit Jeeps are differant, and i only have about 4 months in Cherokee work, but there is more than plenty of people here and information that you should not have to spend much time or money, and if you want, you can put the other like 820 bucks you save into more toys for your jeep. Just read, ask, learn and apply. enjoy the cheap DIY fixes while we still can, because before to long, we are all going to be SOL!
but to answer your question, yes, 1000 bucks is far to much for something you are completely capable of doing yourself. I think in total for my 1980 Camaro it took me about an hour to change the fuel pump (in front of vehicle) and fuel sending unit (in the gas tank) and get her running. Albeit Jeeps are differant, and i only have about 4 months in Cherokee work, but there is more than plenty of people here and information that you should not have to spend much time or money, and if you want, you can put the other like 820 bucks you save into more toys for your jeep. Just read, ask, learn and apply. enjoy the cheap DIY fixes while we still can, because before to long, we are all going to be SOL!
01-13-2012, 08:43 PM
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At sears auto center, we charged a gal $500 to change the fuel pump and it was a monster 30 gallon half full of gas under a full size chevy van. I admit Sears is insanely expensive and that particular pump is expensive. Yes you got scammed however I have heard of fuel pumps going bad in a year or less from just bad luck or there being sediments in the tank. You may have experienced a freak deal I have heard of only a few times. Your fuel pump gets hot when not submerged in fuel and adding cold fuel to the tank with the pump being hot possibly could have cracked or broke something internally. You don't sound like a major mechanic but changing the fuel pump is rather easy on those Jeeps. If you can drop the tank you're 90% there. Just turn the big 8 inch plastic nut counter clockwise and the whole assembly comes out and you have a hole you can stick your head in to clean out the tank if you want (I highly recommend this)
01-13-2012, 08:47 PM
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LOL. and that is very true, it is much easier if it is a near empty tank... I haven't ridden my jeep on the roads yet, so I maty have kinda forgotten that they hold a good bit of gas... unless your running it, then it doesn't hold it for long... lol.
01-13-2012, 09:00 PM
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What chu talkin bout Willis? Mine gets 20 mpg
01-13-2012, 09:04 PM
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I may not have used the correct name for the product, but it was in an aerosol can, and I saw the work "Brake" on the side. The mechanics called it "an alternative source of fuel" because not enough gas was getting to the engine. It did make the engine run for about four seconds.
Good God I hope so. Brake cleaner fluid smells like rubbing alcohol and, unless I am mistaken, is horrible on anything rubber, and brake fluid would just be wierd, as i dont think it is combustable, at least in that form. This is a wierd situation, and I am hoping the OP had a brain fart and just couldn't think of the right word...
but to answer your question, yes, 1000 bucks is far to much for something you are completely capable of doing yourself. I think in total for my 1980 Camaro it took me about an hour to change the fuel pump (in front of vehicle) and fuel sending unit (in the gas tank) and get her running. Albeit Jeeps are differant, and i only have about 4 months in Cherokee work, but there is more than plenty of people here and information that you should not have to spend much time or money, and if you want, you can put the other like 820 bucks you save into more toys for your jeep. Just read, ask, learn and apply. enjoy the cheap DIY fixes while we still can, because before to long, we are all going to be SOL!
but to answer your question, yes, 1000 bucks is far to much for something you are completely capable of doing yourself. I think in total for my 1980 Camaro it took me about an hour to change the fuel pump (in front of vehicle) and fuel sending unit (in the gas tank) and get her running. Albeit Jeeps are differant, and i only have about 4 months in Cherokee work, but there is more than plenty of people here and information that you should not have to spend much time or money, and if you want, you can put the other like 820 bucks you save into more toys for your jeep. Just read, ask, learn and apply. enjoy the cheap DIY fixes while we still can, because before to long, we are all going to be SOL!
01-13-2012, 09:10 PM
#14
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No offense intended, but is this a serious response, or a joke response? Where do I find this big plastic nut? What assembly comes out? If this big hole is in the gas tank, won't all the gas run out? And wouldn't sticking my head in the gas tank be a bad idea considering it's full of gas fumes? Or, are you saying that removing the big plastic nut is something I would do after I have removed the gas tank from the car? Does removing the nut allow me to pull out the fuel pump. Are you suggesting I do all of this if I have decided to replace the fuel pump myself. Please note that the mechanics who worked on the car determined the fuel pump was working. I don't know how. I suppose they could hear it run.
At sears auto center, we charged a gal $500 to change the fuel pump and it was a monster 30 gallon half full of gas under a full size chevy van. I admit Sears is insanely expensive and that particular pump is expensive. Yes you got scammed however I have heard of fuel pumps going bad in a year or less from just bad luck or there being sediments in the tank. You may have experienced a freak deal I have heard of only a few times. Your fuel pump gets hot when not submerged in fuel and adding cold fuel to the tank with the pump being hot possibly could have cracked or broke something internally. You don't sound like a major mechanic but changing the fuel pump is rather easy on those Jeeps. If you can drop the tank you're 90% there. Just turn the big 8 inch plastic nut counter clockwise and the whole assembly comes out and you have a hole you can stick your head in to clean out the tank if you want (I highly recommend this)
Last edited by Cameron58; 01-13-2012 at 09:16 PM.
01-13-2012, 09:20 PM
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Ok dude the big plastic nut is what holds the fuel pump and sending unit assembly in the gas tank. It's a plastic tank and that's just how they do it. Don't stick your head in it just stick your arm in it and clean it our with a bunch of paper towels or something. The nut will have to be removed TO get all the gas out of the tank