MODERATORS: We need some changes in the Fab section!
03-16-2012, 09:13 PM
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MODERATORS: Suggested changes in the Fab section!
Okay, Everyone and their brother-in-law's dog is complaining about the people that keep posting non fab stuff in the fab section (like me, but I have a legit reason!). Anyway, I've posted something like this in the "*attention* you guys have to read the stickies! Must read!!!" thread so maybe you know where I’m going with this, but you can read it again!
So, I'm coming from at this from a manufacturing stand point and the general concept I’m going to go over is a common method used in manufacturing plants, so I'm not just pulling it out you know where. We need to poka yoke (mistake proof, or idiot proof) this forum.
In theory having stickies that tell people they have to read them before posting are great. In reality, they are about as useless as two monkeys throwing poop at each other, other than the entertainment value that provides to the "little" kids at the zoo. You may tell people to read them, but without having a way to force people to, people are lazy and generally won't read them.
Maybe most people on the fab thread DO read them, but that really doesn't matter because it's the people that post the questions about how to mount their CAI, or show how they cut their fenders etc. that screw everything up. These are the people that aren't reading the rules as stated and are posting unrelated threads in the fab section.
Anyway, lots of people are posting the wrong stuff in the Fab section, and lots more are complaining about it. Complaining about it, and trying to move every thread to the correct section is tedious and wastes everyone's time. What we need to do is make this section as idiot-proof as possible. Don't rely on people reading "definitions" of what fabrication is (especially when the definitions are narrower than the section advertises itself as.) The forum needs to be as intuitive and self explanatory as possible.
We have a perfect example right here at Cherokeeforum.com. Take the chat thread for instance. The "OEM Cherokee Tech" section has a subtitle under it that states: "All OEM related XJ Tech. Examples, no start, general maintenance or anything that's stock." And the "Advanced Cherokee Tech" section has the subtitle: "All advanced Tech questions. If it modifies your XJ beyond stock parts ask it here. Examples are lifts and SYE's."
I read go to the main forum page and read those and I know exactly what type of questions I can post there and what information I should be able to find. Now look at the "Fabrication" section's subtitle: "All fabrication posts go here." No offense to the guy that subtitled the fab section, but come on... really!? That is about as generic and uncontrollable as you can possibly get.
"We're" trying to keep the fabrication section strictly for builds people have done, mainly out of metal, like bumpers, roof racks, sliders, skid plates etc. From what I've read of the 'rules' questions about how to fab stuff should not even be in the fab section. But, where else would it make sense to put it? Clearly the fab section would be the best to post questions directly related to fabrication. I've seen people arguing that only metal fabrication should be here also. How do we really expect to keep out the 'junk' posts when we have a subtitle on the section titled "All fabrication questions go here"?
If I want to know what kind of welder I should get for building my rockers, where (by reading the section titles) would I want to post my question? Fabrication! But, oh wait, questions are not allowed.
If I want to know what tubing benders are the best bang for the buck, where (by reading the section titles) would I want to post my question? Fabrication! But, oh wait, questions are not allowed.
If I want to ask how to attach my exoskeleton roll cage to the body, where (by reading the section titles) would I want to post my question? Fabrication! But, oh wait, questions are not allowed.
If I want to post up how I 'fabricated' my wood compartmentalized storage box for the cargo area, or my home made snorkel or CAI that I built from scratch, where would I want to post those? Well if I made them out of raw materials, I technically fabricated them so I would post them in the fab section. But, oh wait, it's not metal so it's not allowed.
If I want to ask how to make/build something, the intuitive place is the "fabrication" section where the fabricators are going to be. This is especially true when the "fabrication" section is listed under the "technical DISCUSSION" section. Moderators, you’re kind of butchering the definition of "fabrication" as a section title in that you're limiting it only to metal work and then not allowing people to discuss it, like in every other section.
Technically fab doesn't have to be just steel. Wiki is not actually a credible source for definitions in the academic world since its user modified, and the definition quoted in the "*attention* you guys have to read the stickies! Must read!!!" thread is only one of many for fabrication on Wiki, if you don't believe me look at the links below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_fabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optics_fabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicon...ce_fabrication
And then there's actual DICTIONARY definitions:
The Websters's defininition: "to construct from diverse and usually standardized parts"
and Dictionary.com:
fab·ri·cate
/ˈfæb[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Tim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]rɪˌkeɪt/ Show Spelled[fab-ri-keyt] Show IPA
verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing. 1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.
2. to make by assembling parts or sections.
3. to devise or invent (a legend, lie, etc.).
I know where you're trying to take the section and that's fine, but calling it just "fabrication" is misleading and causing problems for everyone because the guys that build a PVC snorkel are technically ‘fabricating’ a snorkel.
So again, how do we expect people to follow such a narrow definition of what is supposed to be in the fabrication section, when the "definition" of the section (subtitle) is "All fabrication posts go here" and the entire fabrication section is in the "Technical DISCUSSION" sub-forum. I emphasize 'discussion' because starting discussions is prohibited unless you start with something you built and someone else asks you about it. You can't ask questions and discuss them in the fab section.
Now that I've gotten some of the back ground out of the way, here's what I'm proposing you moderators do. Split up the fab section and rename it!
I'm thinking there needs to probably be four sections, but this is just my ideas:
1. Heavy Metal Fabrication Builds: This can be what the current fab section is 'supposed' to be; people writing up posts on how the built something out of metal whether it be rockers, bumpers, roof racks, CB antenna mounts etc. I think a good subtitle would be "Posts only about metal fabrication projects that YOU built. Examples: bumpers, sliders, roof racks"
2. Non-metal Fabrication Builds: This can be where people who built their own snorkel, CAI (not just hacking something up), cargo area storage organizer etc. who used wood, PVC pipe etc. can post about their builds, in a similar way to the metal fab section. I think a good subtitle would be "Posts only about non-metal fabrication projects that YOU built. Examples: cargo area organizers, homemade snorkels."
3. Fabrication Questions: This is where people who are wondering how to build something, or the best materials to use etc. can ask their questions. This could even be split into two groups for the metal and non-metal if desired. I think a good subtitle would be "Questions about how to build something, equipment to use, or materials go here."
4. Miscellaneous Fabrication: This could be a catch-all for other fab related posts that aren't included above. I can't think of what exactly would go here but I'm sure someone can post something that is fab related, but doesn't fit nicely into one of the sections above. A good subtitle for this could be "All other fabrication related topics go here."
Not everyone understands that fabrication is taking raw materials and making them into something else. Cutting fenders is not fab, it's just cutting/modifying the fenders. You're not creating (adding more than what was originally present) new fenders, just removing part of the originals. I wouldn't even consider JUST chopping the top of an XJ fabrication, but boxing the open holes in the body in and building a roll cage into the back would be. I'll explain further; just cutting the top away is not making anything new, you just have less of the XJ you used to. However taking steel sheet/plate and closing off all the open areas of the body to add strength, and/or building a roll cage then becomes fabrication because you're creating something new out of other parts that you didn't have before.
We can't really blame people if they don't have any background in fabrication and don't know how to really define it. That's where it's the responsibility of the moderators that operate the forum to define the fabrication sub-forum so that it's easily understood what the purpose is. I think this can be done as simply as the 'definition' created by the subtitle.
There's two ways to do this I think. 1) Break the fab section out of the "technical discussion" sub-forum and make it its own sub-forum. 2) Leave it as it is, but create the above sub-sections as part of the current fab section, but make it so you have to select one of the sub-sections instead of being able to post in the main fab sub-forum. Then, in either case, put a defining subtitle on the forum like "Fabrication: taking raw materials and creating something new out of them." A subtitle like that automatically excluded projects like people cutting their fenders, and it’s easily understood as such. The next most logical section in that case is the advanced tech section that has the subtitle "All advanced Tech questions. If it modifies your XJ beyond stock parts ask it here. Examples are lifts and SYE's."
I’m getting tired of everyone trying to bad-aid the problem of people posting in the wrong section. We need to fix the root cause. The problem is that the section is poorly defined and people HAVE to read the stickies or they don’t get the real definition of what the fab section is. The read definition is not what the title of the section states. In addition, fab related questions and the like that would logically go in the fab section (think of this as a first time user of the forum) have nowhere else to go. I know that that for me personally it doesn’t make any sense to ask how to build a bumper in the advanced tech section when there is a fabrication specific section, and that’s where the people I need to ask my question(s) of are going to be.
I don’t know who has the power to make big changes like this, but we need to get them to work on this. We need to make the fab section user friendly and intuitive instead of whining and complaining because people keep posting in the wrong section.
So, I'm coming from at this from a manufacturing stand point and the general concept I’m going to go over is a common method used in manufacturing plants, so I'm not just pulling it out you know where. We need to poka yoke (mistake proof, or idiot proof) this forum.
In theory having stickies that tell people they have to read them before posting are great. In reality, they are about as useless as two monkeys throwing poop at each other, other than the entertainment value that provides to the "little" kids at the zoo. You may tell people to read them, but without having a way to force people to, people are lazy and generally won't read them.
Maybe most people on the fab thread DO read them, but that really doesn't matter because it's the people that post the questions about how to mount their CAI, or show how they cut their fenders etc. that screw everything up. These are the people that aren't reading the rules as stated and are posting unrelated threads in the fab section.
Anyway, lots of people are posting the wrong stuff in the Fab section, and lots more are complaining about it. Complaining about it, and trying to move every thread to the correct section is tedious and wastes everyone's time. What we need to do is make this section as idiot-proof as possible. Don't rely on people reading "definitions" of what fabrication is (especially when the definitions are narrower than the section advertises itself as.) The forum needs to be as intuitive and self explanatory as possible.
We have a perfect example right here at Cherokeeforum.com. Take the chat thread for instance. The "OEM Cherokee Tech" section has a subtitle under it that states: "All OEM related XJ Tech. Examples, no start, general maintenance or anything that's stock." And the "Advanced Cherokee Tech" section has the subtitle: "All advanced Tech questions. If it modifies your XJ beyond stock parts ask it here. Examples are lifts and SYE's."
I read go to the main forum page and read those and I know exactly what type of questions I can post there and what information I should be able to find. Now look at the "Fabrication" section's subtitle: "All fabrication posts go here." No offense to the guy that subtitled the fab section, but come on... really!? That is about as generic and uncontrollable as you can possibly get.
"We're" trying to keep the fabrication section strictly for builds people have done, mainly out of metal, like bumpers, roof racks, sliders, skid plates etc. From what I've read of the 'rules' questions about how to fab stuff should not even be in the fab section. But, where else would it make sense to put it? Clearly the fab section would be the best to post questions directly related to fabrication. I've seen people arguing that only metal fabrication should be here also. How do we really expect to keep out the 'junk' posts when we have a subtitle on the section titled "All fabrication questions go here"?
If I want to know what kind of welder I should get for building my rockers, where (by reading the section titles) would I want to post my question? Fabrication! But, oh wait, questions are not allowed.
If I want to know what tubing benders are the best bang for the buck, where (by reading the section titles) would I want to post my question? Fabrication! But, oh wait, questions are not allowed.
If I want to ask how to attach my exoskeleton roll cage to the body, where (by reading the section titles) would I want to post my question? Fabrication! But, oh wait, questions are not allowed.
If I want to post up how I 'fabricated' my wood compartmentalized storage box for the cargo area, or my home made snorkel or CAI that I built from scratch, where would I want to post those? Well if I made them out of raw materials, I technically fabricated them so I would post them in the fab section. But, oh wait, it's not metal so it's not allowed.
If I want to ask how to make/build something, the intuitive place is the "fabrication" section where the fabricators are going to be. This is especially true when the "fabrication" section is listed under the "technical DISCUSSION" section. Moderators, you’re kind of butchering the definition of "fabrication" as a section title in that you're limiting it only to metal work and then not allowing people to discuss it, like in every other section.
Technically fab doesn't have to be just steel. Wiki is not actually a credible source for definitions in the academic world since its user modified, and the definition quoted in the "*attention* you guys have to read the stickies! Must read!!!" thread is only one of many for fabrication on Wiki, if you don't believe me look at the links below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_fabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optics_fabrication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicon...ce_fabrication
And then there's actual DICTIONARY definitions:
The Websters's defininition: "to construct from diverse and usually standardized parts"
and Dictionary.com:
fab·ri·cate
/ˈfæb[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Tim/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]rɪˌkeɪt/ Show Spelled[fab-ri-keyt] Show IPA
verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing. 1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.
2. to make by assembling parts or sections.
3. to devise or invent (a legend, lie, etc.).
I know where you're trying to take the section and that's fine, but calling it just "fabrication" is misleading and causing problems for everyone because the guys that build a PVC snorkel are technically ‘fabricating’ a snorkel.
So again, how do we expect people to follow such a narrow definition of what is supposed to be in the fabrication section, when the "definition" of the section (subtitle) is "All fabrication posts go here" and the entire fabrication section is in the "Technical DISCUSSION" sub-forum. I emphasize 'discussion' because starting discussions is prohibited unless you start with something you built and someone else asks you about it. You can't ask questions and discuss them in the fab section.
Now that I've gotten some of the back ground out of the way, here's what I'm proposing you moderators do. Split up the fab section and rename it!
I'm thinking there needs to probably be four sections, but this is just my ideas:
1. Heavy Metal Fabrication Builds: This can be what the current fab section is 'supposed' to be; people writing up posts on how the built something out of metal whether it be rockers, bumpers, roof racks, CB antenna mounts etc. I think a good subtitle would be "Posts only about metal fabrication projects that YOU built. Examples: bumpers, sliders, roof racks"
2. Non-metal Fabrication Builds: This can be where people who built their own snorkel, CAI (not just hacking something up), cargo area storage organizer etc. who used wood, PVC pipe etc. can post about their builds, in a similar way to the metal fab section. I think a good subtitle would be "Posts only about non-metal fabrication projects that YOU built. Examples: cargo area organizers, homemade snorkels."
3. Fabrication Questions: This is where people who are wondering how to build something, or the best materials to use etc. can ask their questions. This could even be split into two groups for the metal and non-metal if desired. I think a good subtitle would be "Questions about how to build something, equipment to use, or materials go here."
4. Miscellaneous Fabrication: This could be a catch-all for other fab related posts that aren't included above. I can't think of what exactly would go here but I'm sure someone can post something that is fab related, but doesn't fit nicely into one of the sections above. A good subtitle for this could be "All other fabrication related topics go here."
Not everyone understands that fabrication is taking raw materials and making them into something else. Cutting fenders is not fab, it's just cutting/modifying the fenders. You're not creating (adding more than what was originally present) new fenders, just removing part of the originals. I wouldn't even consider JUST chopping the top of an XJ fabrication, but boxing the open holes in the body in and building a roll cage into the back would be. I'll explain further; just cutting the top away is not making anything new, you just have less of the XJ you used to. However taking steel sheet/plate and closing off all the open areas of the body to add strength, and/or building a roll cage then becomes fabrication because you're creating something new out of other parts that you didn't have before.
We can't really blame people if they don't have any background in fabrication and don't know how to really define it. That's where it's the responsibility of the moderators that operate the forum to define the fabrication sub-forum so that it's easily understood what the purpose is. I think this can be done as simply as the 'definition' created by the subtitle.
There's two ways to do this I think. 1) Break the fab section out of the "technical discussion" sub-forum and make it its own sub-forum. 2) Leave it as it is, but create the above sub-sections as part of the current fab section, but make it so you have to select one of the sub-sections instead of being able to post in the main fab sub-forum. Then, in either case, put a defining subtitle on the forum like "Fabrication: taking raw materials and creating something new out of them." A subtitle like that automatically excluded projects like people cutting their fenders, and it’s easily understood as such. The next most logical section in that case is the advanced tech section that has the subtitle "All advanced Tech questions. If it modifies your XJ beyond stock parts ask it here. Examples are lifts and SYE's."
I’m getting tired of everyone trying to bad-aid the problem of people posting in the wrong section. We need to fix the root cause. The problem is that the section is poorly defined and people HAVE to read the stickies or they don’t get the real definition of what the fab section is. The read definition is not what the title of the section states. In addition, fab related questions and the like that would logically go in the fab section (think of this as a first time user of the forum) have nowhere else to go. I know that that for me personally it doesn’t make any sense to ask how to build a bumper in the advanced tech section when there is a fabrication specific section, and that’s where the people I need to ask my question(s) of are going to be.
I don’t know who has the power to make big changes like this, but we need to get them to work on this. We need to make the fab section user friendly and intuitive instead of whining and complaining because people keep posting in the wrong section.
Last edited by Northwoods Snowman; 03-17-2012 at 12:18 PM.
03-16-2012, 09:37 PM
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1/4 of the way through my eyes started to hurt. IMHO if you make it, reguardless of material, it's fab. If you're asking how to make something or what you should make it with it's not fab it's chat.
03-16-2012, 09:45 PM
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Maybe the powers that be shouldnt be so uptight about what they consider fab. Fab to a newbie is a lot different than fab to a veteran and if you have a fab related question it should be posted in the fab section so that others that are interested in fab will see it and possibly answer it There is already a forum for eliteist aholes, its called pirate4x4. Im not saying that it should be a free for all and that the occasional thread shouldnt be moved, I'm just saying if yoh see a thread you dont like, dont read it, move on.
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03-16-2012, 10:37 PM
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03-16-2012, 10:39 PM
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I personally think that the problem isnt just in the the fab section, the cherokee chat section has also bein slightly skewed (just for ****s and giggles, try typing "skewed into google and see what happens) Things that should more belong in off topic discussion are ending up in the cherokee chat section. IMO the chat section should be used to ask questions about things that are not tech related, such as asking how they should make their bumper, or what gauge metal they should use on their frame stiffeners, etc.
03-16-2012, 10:41 PM
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how about everyone just read the stickies and learn what to post in what section. its not hard to understand that "How to mount my offroad lights" isnt a fab section thread.
on top of the things i listed in the Suggestions sections on this subject i think that more people should be helping the mods keep the section clean by reporting post
i also think if things dont change then make the section a read only and have people apply for the right to post topics
on top of the things i listed in the Suggestions sections on this subject i think that more people should be helping the mods keep the section clean by reporting post
i also think if things dont change then make the section a read only and have people apply for the right to post topics
03-16-2012, 10:44 PM
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I personally think that the problem isnt just in the the fab section, the cherokee chat section has also bein slightly skewed (just for ****s and giggles, try typing "skewed into google and see what happens) Things that should more belong in off topic discussion are ending up in the cherokee chat section. IMO the chat section should be used to ask questions about things that are not tech related, such as asking how they should make their bumper, or what gauge metal they should use on their frame stiffeners, etc.
03-16-2012, 10:55 PM
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You guys do realize you don't have to read every thread posted in every section of every forum, if it's a repeat of a topic previously discussed instead of posting some kind of *****y rant about using the "search" function that doesn't work for ****, just answer the question or say nothing
Who cares if the post a fab question in the fab area? Is it really that big of a deal?
If you actually feel the need to complain about these things perhaps you should reevaluate what's important in your life, this is an Internet Forum, it's intended to share information, not harp on some guy because he posts in the wrong area and you have 3000 post and feel the need to let him know the error in his ways.
Please stop taking these things so seriously!
Who cares if the post a fab question in the fab area? Is it really that big of a deal?
If you actually feel the need to complain about these things perhaps you should reevaluate what's important in your life, this is an Internet Forum, it's intended to share information, not harp on some guy because he posts in the wrong area and you have 3000 post and feel the need to let him know the error in his ways.
Please stop taking these things so seriously!
03-16-2012, 11:01 PM
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You guys do realize you don't have to read every thread posted in every section of every forum, if it's a repeat of a topic previously discussed instead of posting some kind of *****y rant about using the "search" function that doesn't work for ****, just answer the question or say nothing
Who cares if the post a fab question in the fab area? Is it really that big of a deal?
If you actually feel the need to complain about these things perhaps you should reevaluate what's important in your life, this is an Internet Forum, it's intended to share information, not harp on some guy because he posts in the wrong area and you have 3000 post and feel the need to let him know the error in his ways.
Please stop taking these things so seriously!
Who cares if the post a fab question in the fab area? Is it really that big of a deal?
If you actually feel the need to complain about these things perhaps you should reevaluate what's important in your life, this is an Internet Forum, it's intended to share information, not harp on some guy because he posts in the wrong area and you have 3000 post and feel the need to let him know the error in his ways.
Please stop taking these things so seriously!
really this from the guy who had a big rant in his rack build
03-16-2012, 11:02 PM
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You guys do realize you don't have to read every thread posted in every section of every forum, if it's a repeat of a topic previously discussed instead of posting some kind of *****y rant about using the "search" function that doesn't work for ****, just answer the question or say nothing
Who cares if the post a fab question in the fab area? Is it really that big of a deal?
If you actually feel the need to complain about these things perhaps you should reevaluate what's important in your life, this is an Internet Forum, it's intended to share information, not harp on some guy because he posts in the wrong area and you have 3000 post and feel the need to let him know the error in his ways.
Please stop taking these things so seriously!
Who cares if the post a fab question in the fab area? Is it really that big of a deal?
If you actually feel the need to complain about these things perhaps you should reevaluate what's important in your life, this is an Internet Forum, it's intended to share information, not harp on some guy because he posts in the wrong area and you have 3000 post and feel the need to let him know the error in his ways.
Please stop taking these things so seriously!
