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When is it too late to switch to synthetic?

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Old 01-30-2016, 01:42 PM
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Default When is it too late to switch to synthetic?

When I inherited my first Jeep, my '88 XJ Pioneer 4.0L, it had about 120k on it and since I knew the previous owner I kept using conventional motor oil since he did. Likewise with my '01 XJ, it had 97K on it, was a city fleet owned Jeep and I know the mechanics, got all the service records for it. It leaks oil just like my '88.
I recently got an '07 GC 4.7L w/60k and have all of its records from previous owner, only conventional used. I'm right at my 1st oil change interval since getting it from him and unsure if I should switch to synthetic or keep using conventional. There are no visible oil leaks so I'm not concerned about that, just trying to figure out if switching a motor from conventional to synthetic after 63K is a smart move or not.

One thing I know for sure, if you want to find out where all of your engine oil leaks are use synthetic!

If you don't find any then good for your engine, it's tighter than a clam's a*ss.


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Old 01-30-2016, 01:51 PM
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Using a better oil is always better. Synthetic doesn't cause leaks. It sometimes reveals hidden leaks, though. I'd want to know about any leaks, so there is no reason to avoid synthetic if that is what you want to use.
Old 01-30-2016, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mschi772
Using a better oil is always better. Synthetic doesn't cause leaks. It sometimes reveals hidden leaks, though. I'd want to know about any leaks, so there is no reason to avoid synthetic if that is what you want to use.
^^^This.

You can switch from conventional to synthetic at 60k with no worries.

Synthetic is a superior lubricant and when accompanied with a good quality filter, you can extend oil change intervals a bit.

But that being said, nothing wrong with conventional oil as well. I've seen more than a few vehicles go 300K on conventional oil.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Enjoy your GC!
Old 01-30-2016, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tjwalker
But that being said, nothing wrong with conventional oil as well. I've seen more than a few vehicles go 300K on conventional oil.
Indeed. Being synthetic is no guarantee of superiority. Even though I'm a total oil science geek, I've selected conventional Pennzoil as my oil.


To quote myself from a thread asking "What oil do you use and why?"

Basically it comes down to used oil analyses (UOA's). I'm not aware of any better real-world method of understanding how an oil performs than repeated, controlled UOA's. They can provide you with baseline information about fresh oil and tell you how that oil is holding up, how much of its additives are left, and what metals and other contaminants are building-up after X time.

Beliefs in loading flat-tappet engine with Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP/ZDP) are based on decades old information. Oils have advanced tremendously just in the last few years, and beliefs like this trace back decades. Because science literacy is in such a sad state especially in the US, a lot of builders and engineers (not all) behind crate engines and even aftermarket cams and other parts may not even have the skill to understand proper scientific publications and simply rely on information, myths, and obsolete practices that they acquired through unverified word-of-mouth or outdated tradition. Back to UOA's, if ZDP was as necessary in the flat-tappet 4.0 as so many people insist, products like Pennzoil conventional (aka Pennzoil yellow bottle/PYB) wouldn't produce UOA's with such little evidence of wear and such long-lasting oil life as they do--PYB has no where near the ZDP levels claimed necessary for a flat-tappet cam. While also not perfect, here is a nice article about the ZDP myth.
Another way people choose oil poorly is fundamental misunderstandings of viscosity. Example time:
5W-30

"Cold" is defined as 0 degrees Celcius (32 deg F)
"Hot" is defined as 100 degrees Celcius (212 deg F)

When it is COLD, its viscosity is that of a COLD 5 weight.
When it is HOT, its viscosity is that of a HOT 30 weight.
Many make the mistake of thinking that a 5w30 is a thinner oil than a 10w30 and that they shouldn't use it. This is right and wrong. When COLD, yes, it is thinner, but that is a GOOD thing. A cold 5 is still thicker than a hot 30, and in an engine designed to run with a hot 30, a cold 5 isn't going to be any danger. The thinner when cold, the better actually. Start-up is the time when the most wear occurs on an engine, and one of the reasons why is that the cold oil is thick.

Some are also under the odd belief that the 4.0 "likes" thicker oil and insist on using Xw40 or even Xw50 oils. Xw40 oils have been shown to be neither better nor worse in the 4.0 than Xw30's. Xw50, however, is simply a poor choice and even if it does not damage the engine, it doesn't help anything and thicker oil always negatively impacts MPG.

This leads to another false belief of many--that higher oil pressure means better protection. This often leads to people using excessively thick oils in order to increase their oil pressure to a level they belief is desirable, and it is wrong. Oil pressure is neither directly nor indirectly related to the performance of your oil. Keep you oil pressure within the factory specs, and do not draw any other conclusions from what the pressure happens to be on oil X vs oil Y.

I could go on about each of these subjects and others, but the nutshell is that when you eliminate all the junk science, superstitions, obsolete information, misinformation, and logical fallacies and gather good, trustworthy, useful raw data about how oils go into a given engine and how they come out of it and how much of the various parts of the engine come with it (which can all be learned from good UOA's), you can get a pretty good idea of what oils will treat your engine well and which you might want to play it safe and avoid.

After all that, I find myself returning to three very different choices each with its own particular role in my eyes.
  • Pennzoil yellow bottle 5w30
    (This is the oil that I am currently using.) It is cheap. It yields outstanding UOA's in the 4.0. Anything cheaper isn't much cheaper and isn't as good, and you can't get any better than it for simple 3-5k mile oil change interval (OCI), so there's no sense in wasting money on anything more. 10w30 is also fine, but 5w30 will last plenty long enough for a traditional OCI without sheering (the risk of conventional oils with a large difference between cold viscosity and hot viscosity ratings), so why not get the one that will flow a bit better when cold, right?
  • Shell Rotella T6 5w40
    Also fantastic UOA's. Also incredibly affordable. Not as cheap as PYB, so why don't I ignore it? Well, one reason is that some people sadly won't be moved from their belief that they need a lot of ZDP, and T6 is a great oil that these people will accept. Personally, it remains on my list for when an engine is potentially dirty because T6 has a great detergent level for dissolving and suspending sludge and other contaminants. It also makes for a very resilient oil for heavier duties like lots of wheeling/towing and other hard work especially in hotter climates. It is also capable in lighter duty 4.0's of safely reaching extended OCI's of 7500 miles or more (always monitor the health of an oil with periodic UOA's to verify its ability to reach your extended OCI during your first attempt and periodic attempts following).
  • Castrol Edge 0w30 Euro
    I specify the Belgian or German make of this oil because there was a North American formula that was completely different and undesirable once upon a time. It is a relatively expensive oil, so why would I ever consider this one after saying not to buy more expensive oils than necessary? Obviously it even qualifies at all because it does indeed yield fantastic UOA's from the 4.0. The niche it manages to find that ultimately lands it on my short list is that of the extended OCI king. This is an incredibly long-lasting oil that has been monitored my numerous users in extended OCI's and shown to be incredibly sheer-resistant and maintain great protection in many cases well beyond 7k mile OCI's. If a 10k mile OCI is desired, this is the oil to use. As mentioned above, use UOA's during your first attempt to verify that it is holding up and still protecting into your desired mileage just to be sure. At a 10k mile OCI (some have run this oil even longer, though I haven't seen such long OCI's with this oil in the 4.0 yet), that $8 pint of oil actually has comparable value to PYB and T6. The trick to such long OCI's is either making sure you change your oil filter at a traditional OCI or use an oil filter specifically designed for extended OCI's as there are some that have been appearing over the last few years that are designed to last this long.

I don't claim to know it all and am open to learning more about oil and happily change my stance as new information is assimilated, but junk science, myths, superstitions, and years-old forum threads/hearsay are all virtually valueless to me at this point. Real data collected in a controlled, scientific manner that is reproducible/verifiable is what I look for. My choices are based on my best understanding of the industry, its products, and the science involved combined with the most practical logic I can manage as a consumer, Jeep owner, and inherently biased being (anyone who says they are unbiased is a liar).

I think that sufficiently answers the question: "Which oil do you use in your 4.0, and why?"
Old 01-30-2016, 08:45 PM
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One thing I know for sure, if you want to find out where all of your engine oil leaks are use synthetic!

..? Then EVERY car/vehicle at ANY walmart parking lot IS using a synthetic


Not that I'm an expert, but I've been wrenching on stuff for decades, and have been using Amsoil for almost 30yrs. (was selling it, but they screwed me over somthin bad. BUT that's another story..)
ANY synthetic has inherent "cleaning" qualities, and WILL clean. (Some oil companys sell a synthetic "BLEND". Well, that only has to be like IICRC 10%
to call it a blend. the rest is just a cheap oil that they sell for lots more than regular petroleum oil --and you still have to change it at 3000mi--)And they're laughing all to the bank.

And like what was said above, an oil that 'cleans' MUST carry the contaminants in suspension so they can get carried to the filter and removed, Just use a good quality filter. Most engine wear comes from below 20 microns that just go right through a cheap filter. Expect to pay upwards of 20-40$ for a great filter! One thing I really really liked what amsoil sells is the bypass filter setup. You 'tee' off an oil galley with a .030 adapter, and it rout it into a bypass filter that goes SUB moronic (looks like a regular filter can, but is stacked with organic filter pads as the filtration) and then go back into the valve cover/oil pan at a low pressure like a turbo return, just a lot cleaner. It's said that at 60mph it will filter 5qts about every 12-15min. You change the bypass filter every 12 months. BUT on a high mileage engine with unknown history, I'd change it at 3-5months

BUT I've read a gazzillion threads of goobers pissin and moanin about their experience (usually bad) with synthetics. AND HERE'S THE KICKER..
NOT ONE THAT I'VE READ STATES THAT A QUALITY OIL ANALYSIS WAS DONE FROM A REPUTABLE COMPANY!!
It makes me think that if some well under age girl walks up to him and wife/girlfriend and states "HE GOT ME PREGNANT" He would just shrug his shoulders and say "Well, I must have.. SHE SAID SO..."
I'll bet you the FIRST thing the wife says is get a DNA/Blood test! (then a lawyer)
I used Analysts INC. because they didn't have any affiliation to Amsoil and did about a 20 item test (like a blood test) from fuel dilution (which helped me get a dealer to "FIX" a leaky injector once) to sodium and potassium or in other words, a coolant leak -they're in the makeup of coolants, Silica -dirt, Lead -bearings, Iron -rings/crank/ rod wear etc..
Long story short, You should do a analysis FIRST!! Then you know what you're dealing with in YOUR engine, and not some recommendation of some "mechanic"
who makes big bucks on repairing motors or sells rebuilds like Jasper or the like.
Also, you can do it on ANY piece of equipment from lawn mowers to earth movers. (ok, ok.. 2 cycle would be a fuel analysis. And you can't send those in)

You should've seen the 'lil ****** face when I pulled that analysis out and showed him.. (you know the guys that wear cheap suits and a gallon of cologne and hands that have NEVER worked on anything but their joystick..) "OH, did I say that.? I'm so sorry. Don't want to 'offend anyone"..











hehehe.
Old 01-30-2016, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rockosocko
Most engine wear comes from below 20 microns that just go right through a cheap filter.


Yes, and another way to spell "cheap filter" is F R A M.
Old 01-31-2016, 08:27 AM
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The worst time to switch to synthetic is just as the tow truck hauls the carcass of your Jeep to the junkyard. Any time before that is fine.

USE GOOD FILTERS!!
Old 01-31-2016, 09:15 AM
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Default Oil, What do you Need?

Is synthetic better. You betcha!
For 1/4 mile oval, SBChev, Thundercar, couldn't hold oil pressure at the end of run and coming off to the pits. The engines run hot, real hot. Alum rad and rich carb and all, real hot, exhaust manifolds glowing orange! Needed to keep the revs up after the heats trying to cool the engine down, yes we water sprayed the rad, at that time very concerned as oil pressure was 10 - 20 psi. Tried Castol, no, QState, no, Valvoline, better but not enough, then went to Penzoil Racing yellow, no, back to Valvoline conventional. Barely holding 15-20psi, that's hot. This engine had 60 psi at start of each race. We went to Royal purple synthetic, engine could hold 25 psi in same super hot conditions. Now this is exteem condiitons we are talking here. Each lap the engine is pulled to 6400rpm at end of straight, coast into corner, brake, apply throttle, and pull hard out of corner and back up to 6400rpm, every lap. The features are worse and longer. When caution comes out if you don't have good oil, your freaking because your pressure gauge is down and red lite is on. Synthetic Royal Purple worked.
Still use the Royal Purple in my steet bike, exteme environments.
Now do you need that for your Cherokee. It will cost you way more!
The Peep 4.0L Renix is at 752000km on regular conventional oil and filter changes. The XJ doesn't get run like a Thundercar. So conventional oil can get you there, no worries,on a daily driver. Just do the maintenance!
And I used plenty of Fram filters along the way, not always, but many. When you are oil and filtering every 6-8 weeks, it works for me.
Is Synthetic better, yes, your wallet, your choice.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:50 AM
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FWIW I run semi synthetic or a synthetic blend in all my vehicles. Got my XJ with 240k on the clock and no maintainence history, but can assume that conventional was always used. Swapped in the blend without a second thought and it's been fine.
Old 01-31-2016, 10:44 PM
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Lots of questions answered here, none for mine yet but that's okay, it was a nice day today so I changed the oil in my GC to synthetic. fyi I usually use Wolf's Head motor oil and some times Mobil 1 if I cannot get my hands on Wolf.

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Old 02-01-2016, 01:47 AM
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Mobil 1 in the proper weight. WIX or NAPA gold oil filter.

Peace of mind. Simple. For many applications.

But my daughter had an '06 Grand Cherokee with the 3.7 V-6. Owner's manual, and info display, pretty much demanded oil change intervals of 3000 miles. For that one, I used conventional oil with a WIX filter. If you're going to change your oil every 3000 miles, synthetic is just a waste IMO.

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Old 02-01-2016, 08:48 PM
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I've always used conventional. I'm going to try Napa brand (Ashland) full synthetic 10w30 and see how it goes. Will be paired with the Napa Gold that I always use. I have 84k miles so I figured now is as good as any to start.
Old 02-02-2016, 06:49 PM
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I've used PYB in the past (great oil) but my rig seems to love Rotella T6.
Raised my idle oil pressure, and got rid of my hard starts with 10w30 PYB.

Plus my crank case is alot cleaner after 30k miles of Rotella, and it looks damn good inside the cylinder as well.

It's worked so well that I am hesitant to change it, but the 4.0 is such a strong motor that as long as the dipstick is in the safe zone, I have little doubt that the 4.0 would be fine with it.

Wix and Napa Gold are my preference, the Mopar 090 is a great filter, and the Motorcraft FL1A is good as well as a budget option

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Old 02-02-2016, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by investinwaffles
I've used PYB in the past (great oil) but my rig seems to love Rotella T6.
Raised my idle oil pressure, and got rid of my hard starts with 10w30 PYB.

Plus my crank case is alot cleaner after 30k miles of Rotella, and it looks damn good inside the cylinder as well.

It's worked so well that I am hesitant to change it, but the 4.0 is such a strong motor that as long as the dipstick is in the safe zone, I have little doubt that the 4.0 would be fine with it.

Wix and Napa Gold are my preference, the Mopar 090 is a great filter, and the Motorcraft FL1A is good as well as a budget option

What about Mobil 1 filters? I'm gonna try a wix or Napa gold next time but I've always used mobil1 synthetic and Mobil 1 filters
Old 02-03-2016, 12:24 PM
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I love Wix filters. Probably the best money you can spend. Their $7 filter is nicer than most $20 filters out there.

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/en...arison-fodder/

Its a great filter breakdown, literally. They dont recommend one, but there is a nice stack of information there.

Fram's top end filters are as nice as anyone elses, but their under $10 is a cardboard box in a metal tube.

To actually answer your question, NEVER. Its never too late, but will it help is a different question.
On engines that have a ton a miles on them, and have been running conventional, switching could lead to:

Leaks - The thinner when hot oil can find leaks for you. As pointed out, it does not cause them, it will make them noticeable if they are small, where as the conventional was hiding the problem previously.

Timing (or worse, Knocking) - Less of an issue on the XJ, but with a newer (and most imports) vehicle, they use all kinds of sensors to make the engine run "smoother." The PCM makes adjustments based on engine performance, so the switch could mess with this process. But with older cars, the PCM didnt do as much to the engine, and this becomes a moot issue.

Last edited by AbbadonTD; 02-03-2016 at 12:32 PM. Reason: added


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