Need help with removing tranny and flexplate bolts!
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,581
Likes: 8
From: some small town oregon
Year: 1989
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Originally Posted by I Leak Oil
I had respect for you for a damn day then you say something that dumb
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 15,581
Likes: 8
From: some small town oregon
Year: 1989
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Originally Posted by I Leak Oil
Dumb..........***......
Guess he has never had to pay for his stupidity on customers vehicles
Guess he has never had to pay for his stupidity on customers vehicles
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,251
Likes: 0
From: Frisco, Tx
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Originally Posted by 5-90
1) The torque converter is a slip-fit into the transmission, it's not fixed. So, you shouldn't have to unbolt the torque converter to remove the transmission (you can do that later, it's easier to stab the transmission back in with the TC in the bellhousing than with it on the flexplate. Replacement of the screws is recommended, LocTite #242 is mandatory. I have removed AW4s while leaving the TC screwed to the flexplate before.
2) I don't recall if they're on the AW4, but I know the manual transmissions have two extra bellhousing screws that go in from the front of the vehicle.
Your quick description of the leak indicates one or two possible problems:
A) Front pump seal (likely.) Seals against the snout of the torque converter. Check the TC snout for defect outside, clean up with emery cloth or crocus cloth if possible/necessary. Use a light oil to lubricate the emery/crocus for an effective polish, WD-40, machine oil, or honing oil will all work well. Inspect the snout for a worn groove as well - easily done with a thumbnail. If there's a groove, Fel-Pro makes a "sleeve & seal" kit that will allow the installation of a polished sleeve to renew the TC sealing surface, requires no machining.
B) Front pump O-ring (unlikely - no relative movement.) This is the very large O-ring that is wrapped around the front pump housing, it's about 8" across. I've only seen this as part of a reseal kit, but I honestly haven't looked very hard for it (last times I needed to replace this O-ring, it was because I'd "unpacked" the transmission for overhaul anyhow.)
It's far more likely to have the front pump seal fail - it's under pressure (the O-ring is a "bath seal,") and there's relative motion between the parts (the front pump is screwed in place, so there's no movement between them.) I also find it helpful to put a good smear of RTV black on the outside of the metal seal shell before it gets knocked into place.
Seasoned Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
From: Valley Park, MO
Year: 1989
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L Renix Freshly Rebuilt!!
Okay yeah your right i bled this thread into another one. Im sorry about that.
Breaker bar on the balancer will turn the crank, and allow you to access the other bolts.
But relize you pulling and prying has demolished that flywheel. And hopefully nothing else beyond thw converter.
Always replace converters, they are cheap and therw is no point not too.
The flywheel tool is very available and very cheap by the way
Breaker bar on the balancer will turn the crank, and allow you to access the other bolts.
But relize you pulling and prying has demolished that flywheel. And hopefully nothing else beyond thw converter.
Always replace converters, they are cheap and therw is no point not too.
The flywheel tool is very available and very cheap by the way
Seasoned Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 372
Likes: 1
From: Springfield, MA
Year: 1993
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
1) The torque converter is a slip-fit into the transmission, it's not fixed. So, you shouldn't have to unbolt the torque converter to remove the transmission (you can do that later, it's easier to stab the transmission back in with the TC in the bellhousing than with it on the flexplate. Replacement of the screws is recommended, LocTite #242 is mandatory. I have removed AW4s while leaving the TC screwed to the flexplate before.
2) I don't recall if they're on the AW4, but I know the manual transmissions have two extra bellhousing screws that go in from the front of the vehicle.
Your quick description of the leak indicates one or two possible problems:
A) Front pump seal (likely.) Seals against the snout of the torque converter. Check the TC snout for defect outside, clean up with emery cloth or crocus cloth if possible/necessary. Use a light oil to lubricate the emery/crocus for an effective polish, WD-40, machine oil, or honing oil will all work well. Inspect the snout for a worn groove as well - easily done with a thumbnail. If there's a groove, Fel-Pro makes a "sleeve & seal" kit that will allow the installation of a polished sleeve to renew the TC sealing surface, requires no machining.
B) Front pump O-ring (unlikely - no relative movement.) This is the very large O-ring that is wrapped around the front pump housing, it's about 8" across. I've only seen this as part of a reseal kit, but I honestly haven't looked very hard for it (last times I needed to replace this O-ring, it was because I'd "unpacked" the transmission for overhaul anyhow.)
It's far more likely to have the front pump seal fail - it's under pressure (the O-ring is a "bath seal,") and there's relative motion between the parts (the front pump is screwed in place, so there's no movement between them.) I also find it helpful to put a good smear of RTV black on the outside of the metal seal shell before it gets knocked into place.
2) I don't recall if they're on the AW4, but I know the manual transmissions have two extra bellhousing screws that go in from the front of the vehicle.
Your quick description of the leak indicates one or two possible problems:
A) Front pump seal (likely.) Seals against the snout of the torque converter. Check the TC snout for defect outside, clean up with emery cloth or crocus cloth if possible/necessary. Use a light oil to lubricate the emery/crocus for an effective polish, WD-40, machine oil, or honing oil will all work well. Inspect the snout for a worn groove as well - easily done with a thumbnail. If there's a groove, Fel-Pro makes a "sleeve & seal" kit that will allow the installation of a polished sleeve to renew the TC sealing surface, requires no machining.
B) Front pump O-ring (unlikely - no relative movement.) This is the very large O-ring that is wrapped around the front pump housing, it's about 8" across. I've only seen this as part of a reseal kit, but I honestly haven't looked very hard for it (last times I needed to replace this O-ring, it was because I'd "unpacked" the transmission for overhaul anyhow.)
It's far more likely to have the front pump seal fail - it's under pressure (the O-ring is a "bath seal,") and there's relative motion between the parts (the front pump is screwed in place, so there's no movement between them.) I also find it helpful to put a good smear of RTV black on the outside of the metal seal shell before it gets knocked into place.
CF Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,018
Likes: 23
Year: 1988
Model: Cherokee
Engine: AMC242
Seriously, how is that not the worst description of how the AW4 is fixed to a 4.0. If you never unbolted the torque converter from the flywheel, how'd you get the flywheel unbolted from the crankshaft!? Besides, the torque converter cannot just be "stabbed" into the tranny, it has to be rotated to make sure it falls properly into place.
I do know that you can't just randomly stick the TC in place [1) you won't know if it's gone in far enough. 2) You have to line the oil pump rotor drive pawls up with the notches in the TC snout...) but I'd hoped that would be fairly obvious once you'd gotten the thing out.
However, if you unbolt the TC from the flexplate before you remove the transmsission, you've got decent odds of dropping the wretched thing as you pull the transmission out - I've seen it happen, and it can result in a dented (and ruined) TC unit. Leave it secured to the flexplate, then remove it when you've got it exposed and can exert more control over the thing's position - break torque on all four screws, then work them out one at a time by hand. The last screw and the pilot into the crankshaft will do most of the holding for you, just keep it pushed in with your free hand. As you remove the last screw, keep forward pressure on the TC housing until you can get BOTH hands on it, then remove. It's heavier than you think.
It's far easier to put the torque converter into place installed into the transmission than it is to remove it as such. I've done it both ways - so I've got a pretty good idea.
You'll note that I said "I have removed AW4s with the TC left on the flexplate - I didn't say anything about installing them that way. Do please reread what I wrote. I may not have said everything that applies, but I don't seem to have said anything wrong...
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 103
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, Canada
Model: Cherokee
Well, thanks for all the input guys! I got the tranny off (pulled the plugs and loosened the serp belt, then was able to turn the crank with a 3/4" socket and get the torque conv bolts out).
It's a mess in the bellhousing... what is the proper way to remove and replace to front pump seal? Just pry it out??
It's a mess in the bellhousing... what is the proper way to remove and replace to front pump seal? Just pry it out??
CF Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,018
Likes: 23
Year: 1988
Model: Cherokee
Engine: AMC242
Well, thanks for all the input guys! I got the tranny off (pulled the plugs and loosened the serp belt, then was able to turn the crank with a 3/4" socket and get the torque conv bolts out).
It's a mess in the bellhousing... what is the proper way to remove and replace to front pump seal? Just pry it out??
It's a mess in the bellhousing... what is the proper way to remove and replace to front pump seal? Just pry it out??
To remove the front pump seal, either use a "seal puller" (a dedicated tool available about anywhere,) or take a long flat-blade screwdriver and put about a 75* bend into the shaft about 3-4" from the working end (or just unscrew the bellhousing to get room to work, you won't need to bend the screwdriver. May want to do that anyhow, it would make it easier to clean.)
Don't bugger up the bore where the front pump seal sits, and make sure it's clean before you put the new seal in. I like to smear RTV black around the shell of the new seal before I drive it in, and I usually use a brass drift to seat it (a brass rod, 3/4" by about 8" long.) Gentle with the hammer work.
Inspect the snout on the torque converter - use your thumbnail to feel if there's a groove on it caused by seal contamination and accelerated wear. Use a "Sleeve & Seal" kit if necessary.
If you don't need to sleeve the snout, polishing it with crocus cloth won't go amiss. Rinse well, then grease the snout before installation (so you don't scuff the seal lip.)
Once you've got the transmission back in, change the fluid. If the bellhousing is that dirty, the fluid will probably be contaminated by opening up the transmission - if it isn't contaminated already.
If you remove the bellhousing to clean it, consider LocTite #242 to be mandatory on the bellhousing-to-case screws. (Also consider it mandatory on the bellhousing-to-engine screws and on the starter motor mounting screws! I've seen those work loose, and it causes an awful lot of work.)
Inspect the ring gear on the flexplate while you've got it exposed - be prepared to replace it if it shows wear. May as well do it while you've got everything torn to bits anyhow. (If you need to replace the screws, go with OEM or get a flexplate screw kit from ARP. I don't recall the part number, but it's for a Pontiac and will have six screws in it, 1/2"-20x.560") Also, take a large screwdriver and gently pry between the edge of the flexplate and the engine block, and watch the centre of the flexplate around the clamping ring. If it's cracking, that will turn it up - replace if cracking (be sure to retain the clamping ring!)
While you have the seal out, look down the bore. Note the drive tangs for the oil pump - those mate with the notches in the TC snout. This is the part that needs to be lined up before the TC will seat fully - that's what I was castigated about earlier (I was only talking about removing the transmission - we hadn't gotten as far as installing yet.)
This is why the TC gets installed into the transmission before it goes back in, I just find it easier to remove separately. Once you've seated the torque converter, turn it so that one of the mounting screw holes is as close to 6:00 as possible, so you know where it is. You'll be turning the flexplate to match up with that, then starting a screw. Put the screw in finger-tight, back it off 1/2-turn. Repeat until all four TC screws are in, then you can back it out, apply LocTite #242 (or eq.,) and torque.
(You've probably noted a pattern - LocTite #242 on everything in the bellhousing, flexplate, &c - saves you lots of work later...)
If you remove the bellhousing to clean, be careful around the perimeter of the oil pump housing so you don't chew up the O-ring that seals it to the case. I suggest using a Nylon brush there - and watch the junction, you'll know it when you see it.
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 103
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, Canada
Model: Cherokee
Ok thanks guys, and thanks for the informative post 5-90!
New seal is in, I used a windshield removal tool (pretty much just a sharp tip screwdriver with a 90deg bend 1" from the tip). Worked good
Im planning to just put in a new torque converter while I have it out. It may have contributed to the bogging out of 1st gear and into 2nd as well...
I am going to have a good look at the flexplate etc next...feels good to make some progress in this task!
New seal is in, I used a windshield removal tool (pretty much just a sharp tip screwdriver with a 90deg bend 1" from the tip). Worked good
Im planning to just put in a new torque converter while I have it out. It may have contributed to the bogging out of 1st gear and into 2nd as well...
I am going to have a good look at the flexplate etc next...feels good to make some progress in this task!
CF Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,018
Likes: 23
Year: 1988
Model: Cherokee
Engine: AMC242
Ok thanks guys, and thanks for the informative post 5-90!
New seal is in, I used a windshield removal tool (pretty much just a sharp tip screwdriver with a 90deg bend 1" from the tip). Worked good
Im planning to just put in a new torque converter while I have it out. It may have contributed to the bogging out of 1st gear and into 2nd as well...
I am going to have a good look at the flexplate etc next...feels good to make some progress in this task!
New seal is in, I used a windshield removal tool (pretty much just a sharp tip screwdriver with a 90deg bend 1" from the tip). Worked good
Im planning to just put in a new torque converter while I have it out. It may have contributed to the bogging out of 1st gear and into 2nd as well...
I am going to have a good look at the flexplate etc next...feels good to make some progress in this task!
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
From: Tucson
Year: 1993
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Make sure to put a couple of quarts of trans fluid in the converter before you mount it. Also make sure to wiggle the converter onto the transmissions shaft so it clicks all the way in, 3 clicks, you shouldn't be able to get you fingers into the back of the bell housing as a reference of it being all the way on.
Also set the converter bolt positions on the flexplate in a matching position to the converter before mounting the tranny back on so it makes lining the converter bolt holes much easier.
You can also tap the flexplate with a wrench and it should make a "ttiinngg" sound, this is a simple way to see if it's cracked. If it does have a crack when you tap it, it will sound very dull and clunky. Visual inspection is a no brainer.
Not sure if you know all this stuff but reading through this thread it seems like you were having trouble so I wanna toss in some tips. If you knew then moving on..
Also set the converter bolt positions on the flexplate in a matching position to the converter before mounting the tranny back on so it makes lining the converter bolt holes much easier.
You can also tap the flexplate with a wrench and it should make a "ttiinngg" sound, this is a simple way to see if it's cracked. If it does have a crack when you tap it, it will sound very dull and clunky. Visual inspection is a no brainer.
Not sure if you know all this stuff but reading through this thread it seems like you were having trouble so I wanna toss in some tips. If you knew then moving on..
Last edited by AridzonaXJ93; Oct 13, 2012 at 10:02 PM.
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 103
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, Canada
Model: Cherokee
Yah, I've accumulated a few "custom bent" screwdrivers over the years. Specialty tools that I've made by modifying other tools to make other jobs easier and save time - five minutes assessing a job and ten minutes or so spend modifying a tool can end up saving you a couple of hours when it's all done...
Haha yup I hear ya...always good when the tool collection grows!
Make sure to put a couple of quarts of trans fluid in the converter before you mount it. Also make sure to wiggle the converter onto the transmissions shaft so it clicks all the way in, 3 clicks, you shouldn't be able to get you fingers into the back of the bell housing as a reference of it being all the way on.
Also set the converter bolt positions on the flexplate in a matching position to the converter before mounting the tranny back on so it makes lining the converter bolt holes much easier.
You can also tap the flexplate with a wrench and it should make a "ttiinngg" sound, this is a simple way to see if it's cracked. If it does have a crack when you tap it, it will sound very dull and clunky. Visual inspection is a no brainer.
Not sure if you know all this stuff but reading through this thread it seems like you were having trouble so I wanna toss in some tips. If you knew then moving on..
Also set the converter bolt positions on the flexplate in a matching position to the converter before mounting the tranny back on so it makes lining the converter bolt holes much easier.
You can also tap the flexplate with a wrench and it should make a "ttiinngg" sound, this is a simple way to see if it's cracked. If it does have a crack when you tap it, it will sound very dull and clunky. Visual inspection is a no brainer.
Not sure if you know all this stuff but reading through this thread it seems like you were having trouble so I wanna toss in some tips. If you knew then moving on..
So while I've got this thing out is this all I should pretty much be replacing? Just the pump seal and torque converter..?
Im hoping this fixes my bogging into 2nd shifting issue. I was looking into replacing the solenoids but I think that can be done when its in the jeep just as easy I guess..