darknezz

So I bought this 89 cherokee I6 for 300 bucks. No weird engine noises or tranny problems. Everything works on it except the cruise control and a blinker issue (only when head lights are on the right indicator on the dash stays lit and the left front blinker stays lit dimly all the time but still flashes bright when it needs to, the right blinker flashes dimly and kinda slow) I'll work on that later unless someone has any super suggestions :P I searched here and someone that had a similar prob needed to reground the blinkers so I'll try that first. So besides that and its not the prettiest thing, headliners gone, center consoles busted up, paints faded, its not bad for the price. The guy I got it from also just changed the water pump, thermostat, fuel pump and gas tank.

This is my first jeep, first american car actually, I've only had nissan, mazda and mitsubishi sports cars before this and my beloved bmws which I'm on my fourth of. Honestly... Compared to car I'm used to, this motor it a sloppy mess and the steering system is the worst I've ever seen, I'm used to rack and pinion. But none of my other cars could load up the dogs and camp gear and climb away from civilization! So this jeeps is gonna be fun for me despite its american build.

Anyway, it ran so so at first, so I have done this so far:
Cleaned all vacum lines, valves, cleaned all the black goo out of the airbox
Cleaned the throttle body
New air filter, it was BLACK!
New cap and rotor, the contacts were worn and charred...
Put seafoam in the crankcase, drove 50 miles, hot soaked it (seafoam in the brake vacuum line)
Changed the DIRTY DIRTY oil.

After that it ran smother, quieter, much more power.
Still have to put in the new plugs and fuel filter I have which I'm sure will help even more, I bet the plugs look like hell, then I'll run some Lucas fuel system cleaner in the gas.

Thats all pretty standard stuff for me to do to a car I just got, judging by the sludge on the oil cap I believe this jeeps been pretty poorly maintained. I plan on running some more seafoam soon in the oil for a few hundred+ miles then using a semi-synthetic oil.

I also tightened up the steering box and that helped ALOT.

So is there anything I've missed? I'm gonna flush the radiator sometime as well, doesn't look like he did it when he changed the water pump, the brake fluid is pretty dirty but I'll wait til I change the brakes and flush that too. Power steering fluid looks clean, the transmission fluid looks nice and clean to and it shifts good so I probably wont flush that for awhile.

It does need a exhaust manifold gasket and I can see thats not gonna be fun to do, not sure when I'll get around to that. Any problems or tricks I need to know when doing that? It also needs motor mounts, but they look pretty easy to change.

So heres my biggest concern besides making the engine run better and last longer.

The steering:
So when I am driving most of the time the wheel is straight but often and usually with bumps and dips I have have to correct it to the right about 1/4 of a turn to keep it driving straight and it will be like that for a bit and its in general kinda sloppy. But like I said I'm also used to bmws and sports cars, my buddys blazer kinda drives sloppy like this but not as bad. Now it does drive pretty smoothly at all speeds, up to 65 anyway I don't think I'll ever be going faster, but every once in a while, usually after hitting bumps, at any speeds, it starts to shake the wheel back and fourth and it feels like the passenger wheel is flopping around. I believe you guys call this Death Wobble if thats what it is? Its only done this twice to me in the 80 miles I've driven it and it doesn't last for more than a few minutes, but it SUCKS while its doing it.

So what do I need to replace first? Does someone have a picture with the names of the steering parts cause I don't really know the names of them on this kind of steering system. So for now I'll just describe them and what there doing.

The shock thing attached to the main steering arm moves back and fourth some, cant seem to tighten it any so I'm not sure if its suppose to be like that or if its worn out the bracket its bolted to. Is that the "stabilizer"?

I can grab that arm that attaches to the steering box and twist it back and fourth fairly easy, the bushings don't look to bad but is it not suppose to do that?

The control arm bushings, tie rods and sway bar all look ok and don't move much when I grab them.

The struts are not broken or anything but I'm pretty sure the suspension is worn out.

Sorry for the long post but I was just trying to share some info about my new jeep and get some input on my concerns so I can address them properly.

Thanks everyone!

darknezz

Jeez this forum moves fast and theres allot of people looking at it, already on the second page with this thread, I'm used to the bimmer forums and they move slooow.

And I know the steering stuff has probably been covered somewhere and I did try to search but I'd just like some personalized responses.

Autonomous

Welcome to CF! Just got my '99 at the end of December and have been doing similar maintenance. The shock attached to the main steering arm is indeed the steering stabilizer. I haven't replaced mine yet, but will soon. Never hurts to have new parts. Most will tell you it is just a bandaid that masks bigger steering problems, which can be true, so I am waiting till everything else is in order before replacing it.

Many, many things can lead to Death Wobble, but a couple of the biggest are warped rotors (was a big part of my wobble) and also a "track bar" being loose. Search for it and you should come up with some pictures and insight.

I'll leave the rest to the gurus. This place is a fountain of knowledge.

darknezz

I dont think its the rotors, theres no shutter when braking it feels smooth, and its only sometimes.

I found this excellent picture that will serve me well
Though now I notice there is no stabilizer or sway bar in this pic? I mean I see the sway bar links bot not the bar itself.
Is the stabilizer something aftermarket and do people remove there sway bar for lifts?

Like I said I'm used to rack n pinion steering and this is all new to me.
The piece I can grab and twist is the drag link bar, is it supposed to do that?

Also is this page for a "TJ" death wobble the same for my cherokee?
http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/articl....jsp?id=261532
And about dw, is that something that is a constant once it happens or comes and goes like my problem, cause im not even sure if thats what I am experiencing.

Oh and btw I believe my jeep is stock height and stock underneath. I can take a pic of it though and maybe someone can confirm. I don't really plan on lifting it or doing any "extreme" climbing or anything, I just need it to drive around town good and take me camping and im sure I'll get in the mud sometime soon, after this is all sorted out anyway.

darknezz

any answers?

Autonomous

That is a great pic, outlines it all clearly.

Below is a VERY thourough explaination of DW. Its not my write-up, I just don't know who to give credit to atm.

-------------------------------------

Death Wobble explained…
Here's an engineering description of DW. I get tired of seeing people guessing at what's causing their DW, so here goes. Hope it helps someone.

First, you've got to realize that the front suspensions on our vehicles were marginally stable, at best, from the factory. DW is a fundamental dynamic response mode of the entire front end...as a system. Lift and larger tires change (increase) the 'gain' associated with what becomes (or even starts out as) a marginally stable dynamic system. The damping factor (lambda) is also affected by larger tires...it decreases as a function of sidewall height/thickness ratio. Hysteresis in any control path (loose tie rod, steering box, track bar bushing) reduces the ultimate stability margin further. The fundamental frequency of DW is determined by the superposition principle where all springs involved are resolved (frame, tire resilience, hub bending, bushing deflection, etc, etc.) into one global spring constant, and all damping factors associated with friction, elastic elements, viscous damping (steering damper and shocks) are resolved into one damping factor. The natural frequency, damped natural frequency, and damping coefficient are then known. Now, if the system is overdamped and the gain is low...no problems...no oscillation. Increase the gain without increasing the damping and you go toward the critically damped, and beyond, specturm of responses. Critically damped means that DW would only 'hint' at being there, but would die out on its own without going totally unstable. This is also known as a decaying response.

Once the system goes beyond critically damped, any excitation, be it an unbalanced tire, a bent wheel, bumps in the road, etc. can set it off and the response will not decay...it will grow in amplitude, quite quickly in some cases, and may be limited only be physical non-linearities like hard stops...or breakage. That's classic Death Wobble.

A truck suspension is designed to stay in the overdamped to critically damped range. That is generally why a truck rides "rough". A Cadillac, on the other hand, is designed to stay in the undersprung range. It just "floats" down the road. Any change in the basic design parameters that affect the gain (e.g., lift, tire size, wheel backspacing, etc.), damping (tire size, steering damper, steering box condition), and hysteresis (any wear point that creates any slop) can push it over the edge and create DW. ANY ONE OR TWO of the factors discussed can do that...which is why everybody then thinks that whatever problem THEY found and fixed is the cause of all DW; it is not. It is plain and simply a marginally stable system in its original form that is easily made unstable by any of the myriad causes discussed already.

If your front end is loose (bushings, bearings, etc.) then you have a situation where your stiffness is removed and any jarring sensation (potholes, unbalanced tires, misaligned wheels, etc.) will cause the suspension to go crazy. It is no longer functioning where it is designed. On the other hand, your suspension could be very tight but an imbalanced tire would be spinning at just the right speed to throw the suspension into a unstable situation.

So unfortunately there isn't only one root cause to the problem of DW. The underlying problem is instability in the front suspension, the root causes can be a multitude of things ranging from bad/loose bushings, to loose bearings, to caster angles, to imbalanced tires, etc.

OKAY, HERE'S THE REALLY USEFUL INFO:

A steering damper only hides (maybe) the effect; it does nothing to fix the root cause.

There are two types of DW. The first typically is speed related. Whenever you reach a certain speed, bam, you get DW, no matter what. This is a vibration/oscillation issue. Look into tire balance, alignment, steering joints, missing bushings (totally shot), loose steering box (either loose bolts or worn internals), etc.

The second is an impact initiated DW. For example, hitting a pothole above a certain speed will start DW. This is more likely a bushings, loosening mounts, flexing components, etc. issue. Basically, something is tight enough that in general straight driving, it is ok, but give it an impact force, whatever is getting loose starts sliding, rebounds and starts going nuts.

Here is how you can tell if the issue is steering related or trackbar related. You are gonna need some ***** for this, but stick with me. Once you have played around with the DW awhile you find you can control it a bit by feathering the brakes. So go find a straight, deserted, bumpy road. Get the truck up to speed and get the DW going. You had it happen a few times, you have already been frantically avoiding potholes, so now go find one, quit whining. At this point, the truck is somewhat violently shaking, and you can keep enough control using the brakes to keep it on the road. Roll down the window and stick your head out and look at the front tire. What is it doing?

1. The front of the tire and the back of the tire are moving approximately the same amount side to side. In this case, the axle is stationary, and the wheel is pivoting on the ball joint during the oscillation. Therefore the problem is likely in the steering. Something in the steering has enough give to allow the movement.

2. The back of the tire is moving MORE than the front of the tire in the side-to-side movement. In this case, the knuckle is pivoting on the steering links, and allowing the axle to move back and forth under the vehicle. The problem here is most likely in the trackbar system.

This doesn't really answer a question about what's causing YOUR DW, but it should give you something to think about in your search for the root cause(s). I'd check the trac bar bushings, make sure your wheel bearings are in spec, make sure your tires are balanced, make sure your alignment is in spec - especially caster, make sure your ball joints & TREs are tight, see if you have play in your steering box, etc.

Everybody got all that? ;D
Steve
Here are a couple of Q&As I've received on another forum where I wrote about DW:

Can you explain why reducing caster helps on some vehicles? It doesn't seem like it should work, but it does.. and at other times more caster will cure it.
Basically, anything you do to get the front suspension back closer to original factory specs should help with DW. Remember, a lot of our vehicles were marginally stable from the factory, and when we lift them, change the steering, run huge tires, etc., we're making them even less stable. So, running the caster at whatever it was from the factory, along with making sure that the many other things affecting the front suspension are in good condition, will help greatly.

Unfortunately, there's no silver bullet for fixing DW, and what works for one person may not work for another. You have to consider the entire front suspension as a system and then make that system as stable as you can for the way you want to run it.

Pondering how too much caster can cause wobble, the more caster you have, the larger the vertical movement of the wheel will be, under steering input. More vertical movement = more influence that the weight of the rig can have on it, and particularly with large soft tires, that would be a fairly substantial, mostly undamped, weight hanging out there. Get it cycling, and it's not going to want to stop.

I really oughta crank down my caster a bit (front at 8 degrees) but no steering feedback = very difficult to get actual DW, so I've been lazy.
Scott, let's take it to the extreme to see why too much caster can make the suspension system unstable. Picture 90* of caster. The ball joints/kingpins would be horizontal, so when you turned the wheels they would turn top to bottom and not side to side. 90* is extreme, but the more + caster you have the more the wheels are turning top to bottom and less side to side. Besides getting pretty unstable (and VERY heavy steering feel) with much more than 10* or so, you also start scrubbing the tires pretty bad when turning with too much caster.


NOTE: For reference purposes, here is a diagram of what caster is. Positive caster is when the top of the tire "leans" toward the rear of the vehicle as depicted in the diagram.

http://www.familycar.com/classroom/I...ign_Caster.gif

Curing deathwobble is definetly a reality. Deathwobble isn’t similar to a wobble from an unbalanced tire. It is by far worse. When deathwobble hits you will know… it’s a violent shake form the front end that feels like the Jeep is about to fall apart. Usually when it happens the only thing you can do to stop it is slow down. The first steps to eliminate deathwobble should be a visual inspection of each component, check the bushings, tire balance and an alignment. There are some common things you must check anytime you lift your Jeep. Deathwobble is experienced mostly on lifter Jeeps, however it is not uncommon for someone without a lift to experience the dreaded DW. Listed below are a few things you can check.

Torque specs:

Item ........................................ Ft. lbs. ................... Nm

Lug nuts (1/2 X 20 w/ 60* cone) .... 85-115 .............. 115-150
All tie rod ends ............................ 55 ..................... 74
Steering (both ends) .................... 55 ..................... 74
Shock absorber upper nut .............. 16 ..................... 22
Shock absorber lower nuts ............. 17 ..................... 23
UCA frame end ............................. 66 ..................... 89
UCA axle end ............................... 55 ...................... 74
LCA frame end ............................. 85 ...................... 115
LCA axle end ............................... 85 ...................... 115
Track bar frame end ..................... 60 ...................... 81
Track bar axle end ....................... 40 ....................... 54
Track bar bracket bolts ................. 92 ....................... 125
Track bar bracket nut ................... 74 ....................... 100
Track bar bracket support bolts ...... 31 ....................... 42
Hub bolts (3) ............................... 75 ....................... 102
Hub- axle bolt .............................. 175 ..................... 237

Alingment specs (stock):

Angle ............. Preferred ........... Range ............. Max R/L diff.

Caster ............ +7.0* ........ +5.25* to +8.5* ......... 1.25*
Camber ........... -0.25* ....... -0.75* to +0.5 ........... 1.0*
Total Toe-in .... +0.25* ....... 0* to +0.45* ............. .05*
Thrust angle .... 0* to ± 0.15*



Check your Track Bar, play in this can cause the axle to shake.
1. Bushings - check to see that they are not worn. Looks for cracks, and excessive play)
2. Angles - this angle should be the same as your draglink. Use an angle finders you can get at sears to determine this, don’t just eye-ball it.
3. Bolts – Make sure all bolts are tightened down to spec (some lift components have a different torque spec then)

Check the Axle, your mounts may be worn
1. Check the axle mount. Here is a good write up on a wallowed out bolt hole
http://www.jeepin.com/features/trackbarfix/index.asp
2. Check your Universal joints, a binding or lose U-Joint can cause DW
3. On the frame end if you still use the conventional Tie Rod End or (TRE) make sure that there is no play in this, as play can cause DW.
4. Look/Check for worn/torn boots on ball joints/tie-rod ends.

Check your Tires
1. Out of balance tires can cause shaking in the front end, which can lead to deathwobble.
2. Make sure all of your lug nuts are tight, (Sounds elementary but it happens to the best of us)

Check your Frame
1. Small cracks in the frame can cause the steering box to feel loose, Shaking from DW can only make this worse. 33’s and larger should have some form of Steering box brace, or frame brace in.
2. If you have upgraded your frame mount, make sure its cranked down nice and tight. (best to use an impact gun)
3. A busted Frame Mount can cause play in the front end causing DW (Keep a watchful eye on the welds as welds in sheer can break over time.

Make sure you have a good alignment
1. After you get an alignment done, have them print out the numbers for you. An XJ should have a 7* positive caster angle. A lifted XJ can’t always have that high of a number because the pinion would become out of alignment with the front driveshaft. Pinion angle takes precedence over caster.
2. Make you sure you go to a place that will adjust the caster if necessary (either by shims in the frame side of the LCAs, or adjustable LCAs).

The more adjustable parts the easier it is to tune in your suspension.
1. Adjustable Track Bar
2. Adjustable Upper and Lower Control Arms (upper ones above 4” of lift). Not only are they adjustable, but they are stronger.


Things to remember:
1. A Steering Stabilizer (SS) is not a quick fix for DW.

Entire list of everything that can cause deathwobble:
-Front tires out of balance
-Front alignment out of spec
-Loose track bar
-Worn track bar bushings
-Worn track bar end
-Need adjustable track bar
-Bad bushings/joints in control arms
-Worn/damaged steering stabilizer
-Worn/damaged shocks
-Worn/damaged tie rod end
-Bad U Joint
-Bad ball joint
-Loose frame mount
-Steering box looseness
-Need drop pitman arm
-Driveshaft(s) not balanced
-Bad front hub assembly

-----------------------------------

darknezz

wow thanks that is a good write up. makes me understand this marginally "stable, at best," steering system allot more.

So I have "impact related dw" a minor case allbeit but I want to fix it before it gets worse and I'm sure it will.

I will do the test to see if its steering or trackbar related, though im pretty sure the steering box is ok. maybe not though I guess I don't know

After the test and if its not the steering box I think I will start by getting a new trackbar, steering stabilizer and alignment and see how that does. Eventually I will get all new front end and suspension parts with maybe a sliiight lift as to not make things worse, but for now I just need to focus on the main problems without spending to much money.

I will also check all the bolt torqes and check if the mount for the track bar is wallowed out.

So suggestions on a trackbar and steering stabilizer brands? Hopefully not to expensive? I usually just go to like carquest or autozone or w/e to get stuff but I think I'd like to get some little better than oem parts. Ebay?

hmm I have a dawning feeling I'll be continuosly dumping money into this jeep, I might just keep it around forever :P

I drove it to work today, about 8 miles each way, some city some freeway and no woble, was driving pretty straight today and is so much better with the tightend steering box I did. On my way home I stopped by a muddy abbandoned lot and "tested the 4x4 some more, it was quite fun and is why I think I'll be keeping this thing around for awhile. Plus I like being bigger than other people :P I'm so used to being 3 inches of the ground in the eclipse lol.

darknezz

I just drove down a very bumpy gravel road with lots of potholes aroundt 15-20 mph and I can hear kind of a clunking sound over the bumps sounds like its from the wheel well. I think the shocks are toast and its just using the springs.

Oh I also went though a big puddle on just the right car of the car at 35 mph and it pulled like HELL worst I've ever experienced going through a puddle.

Would it be more beneficial to get new shocks first or the arms? If I get shocks do I have/should get new springs?

Also I'm noticing now when I turn left slowly, like pulling in a parking spot, it somtimes make a squeling/metal rubbing sound. Thats what my eclipse did right before the lower control arm ball join fell out of its socket and the strut tower came crashing down on the axel... Luckily that was in a parking lost. I hope thats not gonna happen with this...

I know I just need a whole new suspension and steering/control arm setup... But theres no way I can buy it all at the same time. f*** I wish I could use my extra newer set of bmw blisten shocks n springs lol

darknezz

I'm thinking these on ebay?

Rough Country Steering Stabilizer

World Suspension Trac Bar, Drag Bar, Tie Rods And Ball Joints
Any opinions on this? It says its just OE brand, their not gonna break on me are they?

That should fix most my problems and I think I can afford it, its all not TOO pricy, you guys should see bmw parts prices...

Then I'll get shocks next and get it all aligned and wheels balanced I should be mobbing good after all that!

Please someone give input on this, should I get rough country, kyb, or gabriel shocks? There all about the same price, anyone have any insight? Again do I need to change the springs too? Theyre not broken or anything but do they wear out as well?

darknezz

If noone but Autonomous is gonna give me any input I'll have to make a thread for each question!
Thanks though Autonomous for the info you have given me.

Autonomous

Not a problem, we'll figure this stuff out together. My help is limited because I have a 2wd, but I should be getting a 4wd XJ in about 3 months or so I hope. Money is tight because we are buying our first home.

I got shocks within 2 weeks of owning mine because like yours they clunked when I did anything, the Jeep rolled hard when I turned, when I stopped I did serious nose-dives and it bounced over anything but smooth asphalt. I got Monroe Sensa-Trac's because its 2wd and a friend got me his cost so $116 including tax for all 4. Since you aren't going to pound it I have heard good things about KYB, but you may want to do some searches just to be safe.

Unless you think your springs are sagging there is no real reason to get new ones. Yes they will wear out like any part does, but if they aren't worn atm why spend the cash is motto.

Tie Rod ends are cheap, according to AutoZone, so judge your kits off of OEM style parts if you need a good start. I would check that the track bar is tight first, since it shouldn't be much trouble to figure out, and it might just need tightening. If its not cracked you can replace the bushings for $8! Check out this write-up:

http://www.gibnet.us/JeepMods/trackbar.htm

Since you aren't planning on a lift, or atleast not going bigtime like a lot of forum-goers atm I would think good warranty OEM replacements would fit the budget. Once i finally find my next Cherokee I am just going for a 2inch lift, will allow for slightly more aggressive tires, won't need to sweat the driveshaft angles or worry about longer brake-lines and adjustable control arms and such. That should suit my need as a daily driver with the ability to have some fun.

Seems like we are some late-night fools, and in the morning and afternoon this board moves fast. I've replied to something at night and when I checked at work (1pm-ish) it was on page 3. So if you aren't getting replies sometimes it is as simple as it fell off the front page and got lost in the tide of new posts.

darknezz

whered your friend get all 4 monroes for 116? they were the more expensive brand. the ones I am looking at are around 40-50 each for gabriel kyb or RC shocks. Mine has the same rolling, bouncing and nose diving symptoms.

Yea I think my springs will be ok.

I also agree I prolly dont need the actual whole bars and just the bushings, I don't have a press though, but I see thats not on the list of tools needed there so cool. I'll probably just do that then. That way I can get the shocks and SS and do all my bushings at the same time.

and yeah this forum does move fast early. I think most people here go to sleep early :P

thanks for the link n info

XJ4MEPLZ

When you are ready for your shocks you want to spray the rear upper bolts with penetrating fluid about a week before you start, they like to break off easily.

Actually do that with anything on your jeep.

Autonomous

My friend works at a tire shop so he snagged a wholesale price from the local NAPA for me, but you can find good prices on the internet. Log in to Amazon.com and input your Jeep and search that way. These SHOULD be the same as mine and they are around $30 each, so $120 for the set.


You could hit up the AutoZone or local parts house and get the actual parts numbers for both front and rear then tell them you will think about it, go home and check the internet. Just remember front shocks are different, what with the long rod and all.

Here is MY shock change write-up, along with a link to pics and what you should do if the bolts break. Soak the bolts in PB Blaster ASAP if you are even thinking about doing the change, it saves headaches.

***
The bolts are USS 5/16 -18 1" bolts, washers, stopnuts. Find Grade 8 if you can, those are the strongest, if not Grade 5 is still automotive grade. Buy 8 bolts and stopnuts, 4 washers. The fronts you wont need washers. If you don't break the rear top-bolts then you won't need 4 of the nuts, but its better to have them just in case. Replace all the bolts even if they don't break, it will just save you agony next time.

There are some triangular access holes about 5" away from the rear shocks toward the center of the vehicle. Use a straw if you can and spray the PB all over the top nut that is welded into place. Let it soak as long as you are like, then remove the bolts slowly. After the first 1/4 turn tighten them again so that the rust moves out of the threads a bit. This method worked for me and I didn't break a bolt.

IF you do break a bolt then refer to this guide:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/s...-heavy-323809/

It is well made and the pics are invaluable.
Best of luck to you, its really not to bad. Just a reminder because I would feel bad if I didn't, but be sure to "chock" the tires on the ground if you are lifting half the Jeep at a time. Safety first!

darknezz

Yeah I always have some pb blaster, its the best stuff ever. Thanks for the info, I'm still not sure what shocks I'll get, I'll check with the auto stores and if there not much more I'll just get them there so I don't have to deal with shipping and what not. I'll be doing the fronts first and the backs later.

I know to chock the tires :P I've worked on alot of cars, just not jeeps, thanks though