Anyone Please HELP! Starting Issue
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
From: Ohio
Year: 2001
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 L
Anyone Please HELP! Starting Issue
Ok, I'm at my wits end with this hard start. I have an 01 Cherokee Limited. Great Jeep, other then awful fuel economy, and hard to start. These are the symptoms:
1. Hard to start when warm, if sits overnight starts right up, or if just run in store quickly will start right up too. BUT if sits for more then 15 minutes won't start.
2. HORRIBLE fuel economy. Averaging about 225 a tank, when purchased Jeep was getting 325. Each week seems to get worse. I've tried babying it, and still nothing. I run 91+ octane.
3. Will loose power up hills...has no get up if trying to pass on highway.
4. Appears to run rich, black tail pipe.
5. Has backfired a few times.
6. When fuel pressure test is done it is good at key, good at start, but when is turned off, drops to under 20psi within 15/20 minutes.
This is what I've done since I've owned the Jeep (a little over a year)
1. New Fuel Pump (old one fuel filter was off of)
2. Ran Seafoam in tank and vacuum lines.
3. Ran Chevron Techtron twice, after fuel pump change.
4. Changed the CamShaft Position Sensor.
5. Changed the CrankShaft Position Sensor.
6. Changed the Coolant Temp Sensor.
7. Put new NGK plugs in with new boots and coil pack/rail.
8. Taken to factory no avail. (what a waste of 90 bucks)
9. New 1000 cold cranking amps battery
Anyways if anyone has ANY suggestions I would appreciate the help. The fuel economy is killing my wallet, and don't look forward to the expensive starter I'm about to replace.
1. Hard to start when warm, if sits overnight starts right up, or if just run in store quickly will start right up too. BUT if sits for more then 15 minutes won't start.
2. HORRIBLE fuel economy. Averaging about 225 a tank, when purchased Jeep was getting 325. Each week seems to get worse. I've tried babying it, and still nothing. I run 91+ octane.
3. Will loose power up hills...has no get up if trying to pass on highway.
4. Appears to run rich, black tail pipe.
5. Has backfired a few times.
6. When fuel pressure test is done it is good at key, good at start, but when is turned off, drops to under 20psi within 15/20 minutes.
This is what I've done since I've owned the Jeep (a little over a year)
1. New Fuel Pump (old one fuel filter was off of)
2. Ran Seafoam in tank and vacuum lines.
3. Ran Chevron Techtron twice, after fuel pump change.
4. Changed the CamShaft Position Sensor.
5. Changed the CrankShaft Position Sensor.
6. Changed the Coolant Temp Sensor.
7. Put new NGK plugs in with new boots and coil pack/rail.
8. Taken to factory no avail. (what a waste of 90 bucks)
9. New 1000 cold cranking amps battery
Anyways if anyone has ANY suggestions I would appreciate the help. The fuel economy is killing my wallet, and don't look forward to the expensive starter I'm about to replace.
CF Veteran
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,316
Likes: 1
From: Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
Year: 1998
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 rebuilt w/ bored TB, banks header, upgraded ignition, 3 row rad, high flow h2o pump, 180* t-stat
ok step one: STOP throwing parts at it!
obviously it's not working
now two things. can you do a compression test?
and do a paper test on the exhaust. hold a sheet off paper up to your exhaust and see if it suctions to the pipe at any time. If it does, thats a valve problem, which could cause backfire and a black tailpipe.
Its not a fuel issue, 20psi at the rail is normal for start up
there is an TSB about the 00' & 01' XJ's having an issue with fuel vaporization in fuel injector #3 due to high heat from the exhaust manifold. The fix is a little heat sleeve for the #3 injector, but some heat tape will do the dame thing.
also, dont know why you run 91 octane, compression isnt high enough to need it. another waste.
Dukie could be on to something, faulty O2 sensors often cause hard starts...
obviously it's not working
now two things. can you do a compression test?
and do a paper test on the exhaust. hold a sheet off paper up to your exhaust and see if it suctions to the pipe at any time. If it does, thats a valve problem, which could cause backfire and a black tailpipe.
Its not a fuel issue, 20psi at the rail is normal for start up
there is an TSB about the 00' & 01' XJ's having an issue with fuel vaporization in fuel injector #3 due to high heat from the exhaust manifold. The fix is a little heat sleeve for the #3 injector, but some heat tape will do the dame thing.
also, dont know why you run 91 octane, compression isnt high enough to need it. another waste.
Dukie could be on to something, faulty O2 sensors often cause hard starts...
Last edited by tannerp89; Jan 5, 2011 at 08:56 AM.
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,197
Likes: 18
From: Aberdeen, MD
Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L HO I-6, 703 Injectors, Brown Dog Super Engine Mounts
first of all, stop throwing parts at it. Many of those parts you changed have little to nothing to do with your problem.
First things first, is it throwing any check engine codes? Even if the light is not on, go to the local auto parts store and get the stored codes read - they are very useful in pinpointing the cause of issues.
Second, when was the last time you changed the oil and the air filter, also fuel filter?
Initially this screams bad upstream o2 sensor/faulty o2 sensor heater circuit. You could also have a faulty throttle position sensor.
First things first, is it throwing any check engine codes? Even if the light is not on, go to the local auto parts store and get the stored codes read - they are very useful in pinpointing the cause of issues.
Second, when was the last time you changed the oil and the air filter, also fuel filter?
Initially this screams bad upstream o2 sensor/faulty o2 sensor heater circuit. You could also have a faulty throttle position sensor.
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 15,197
Likes: 18
From: Aberdeen, MD
Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L HO I-6, 703 Injectors, Brown Dog Super Engine Mounts
Code:
TSB 1803103 - 4.0L ROUGH ENGINE IDLE AFTER RESTART FOLLOWING A HOT SOAK Date: 09/05/03 (supercedes 1802702 dated 09/06/02) Model Year(s): 1999-2004 Description: NOTE: This bulletin applies to vehicles equipped with a 4.0L engine. This bulletin involves the installation of a fuel injector insulator sleeve. Details: Customers may describe a 20 to 30 second rough idle following the restart of a heat soaked engine. This condition may be most noticeable when the engine is restarted following a prior 10 to 20 minute heat soak in hot ambient conditions of approximately 32 C (90ºF) or higher. This condition may be consistent with short city stop-and-go driving trips and can be aggravated by the use of fuel with a high ethanol content. Depending upon various conditions a MIL may occur due to DTC P0303 - Cylinder #3 Misfire. This condition may be caused by heat from the exhaust manifold that following engine shut down migrates to the area around injector #3 and causes fuel vapor to form within the injector. This in turn may cause a momentary misfire of cylinder #3 until the fuel vapor is cleared of injector #3. The insulator sleeve lowers the injector #3 temperature to a point below which the fuel will not normally vaporize. If vehicle exhibits a rough idle, and if a misfire of cylinder #3 is observed following a 10 to 20 minute hot soak, perform the Repair Procedure. Parts required: 56028371AA Ignition Wire Shield Repair procedure: 1. Cut insulator sleeve, p/n 56028371AA, to make two (2) insulator sleeves about 25-30 mm (1 in.) in length. See diagram. 2. Install one sleeve around injector #3, with the slit on the upward facing side of the injector. Install the other sleeve with the slit on the downward facing side of the injector. 3. Confirm sleeve is flush to intake manifold surface around injector. 4. Check injector #3 wire and ensure that the injector is rotated to a 2 o'clock position. TSB for the cold start rough idle and P0303 code: TSB 18-010-01
beat you to it
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Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
From: Ohio
Year: 2001
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 L
first of all, stop throwing parts at it. Many of those parts you changed have little to nothing to do with your problem.
First things first, is it throwing any check engine codes? Even if the light is not on, go to the local auto parts store and get the stored codes read - they are very useful in pinpointing the cause of issues.
Second, when was the last time you changed the oil and the air filter, also fuel filter?
Initially this screams bad upstream o2 sensor/faulty o2 sensor heater circuit. You could also have a faulty throttle position sensor.
First things first, is it throwing any check engine codes? Even if the light is not on, go to the local auto parts store and get the stored codes read - they are very useful in pinpointing the cause of issues.
Second, when was the last time you changed the oil and the air filter, also fuel filter?
Initially this screams bad upstream o2 sensor/faulty o2 sensor heater circuit. You could also have a faulty throttle position sensor.
Dukie - No it is not throwing any codes, I've hade codes pulled by factory Jeep and another professional auto body. NO CEL codes. I have 7,000 miles on my oil change, I'm changing it and filter this weekend.
I thought most sensors would throw codes when bad...The factory are the ones that told me to change the Crankshaft and Camshaft sensors. They wanted to charge $800! I was like nope I will do that myself.
Also Autozones code scanner is coming up nothing, did that before taking to shop.
Also just to clarify this Jeep has done this the whole year i've owned it...Minus the first 3 days. Thought for sure I would have a CEL by now.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
From: Ohio
Year: 2001
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 L
ok step one: STOP throwing parts at it!
obviously it's not working
now two things. can you do a compression test?
and do a paper test on the exhaust. hold a sheet off paper up to your exhaust and see if it suctions to the pipe at any time. If it does, thats a valve problem, which could cause backfire and a black tailpipe.
Its not a fuel issue, 20psi at the rail is normal for start up
there is an TSB about the 00' & 01' XJ's having an issue with fuel vaporization in fuel injector #3 due to high heat from the exhaust manifold. The fix is a little heat sleeve for the #3 injector, but some heat tape will do the dame thing.
also, dont know why you run 91 octane, compression isnt high enough to need it. another waste.
Dukie could be on to something, faulty O2 sensors often cause hard starts...
obviously it's not working
now two things. can you do a compression test?
and do a paper test on the exhaust. hold a sheet off paper up to your exhaust and see if it suctions to the pipe at any time. If it does, thats a valve problem, which could cause backfire and a black tailpipe.
Its not a fuel issue, 20psi at the rail is normal for start up
there is an TSB about the 00' & 01' XJ's having an issue with fuel vaporization in fuel injector #3 due to high heat from the exhaust manifold. The fix is a little heat sleeve for the #3 injector, but some heat tape will do the dame thing.
also, dont know why you run 91 octane, compression isnt high enough to need it. another waste.
Dukie could be on to something, faulty O2 sensors often cause hard starts...
Also with the octane, I get worse gas milage with anything under, so I bumped up to 91+...I'll switch back and see if I'm still seeing a major difference. Thanks!
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
From: Ohio
Year: 2001
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 L
Not sure, I've had the Jeep first to Autozone, to see if anything came up, then to Jeep Factory, and then another auto body. When I took it to the last shop they said Wow you had alot of codes in there, but then proceeded to ask if sensors had been getting tested lately, Which the Jeep Factory had been doing trying to pin point the starting problem.
I was about to take the Jeep back to the last shop and have the timing checked, I could have them pull codes again...
I was about to take the Jeep back to the last shop and have the timing checked, I could have them pull codes again...
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,839
Likes: 116
From: In the middle of Minnesota!
Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
1. Have you tested the MAP SENSOR? Input signals from that do contribute to the fuel/air mixture. Easily tested and should be done.
2. Get a FRESH reading of codes and post the exact codes here for comment. We really need the exact code numbers in order to help you.
3. If you get stuck here and it appears that you might be at that point, you really should get this vehicle on a SCAN TOOL that can look at all of the engine management sensors real time. This is an extremely valuable tool that can save you a lot of heartache.
Other than your driveability symptoms, here are Some troubleshooting tips for extended crank times and to verify if "pressure drop" is in spec. (from factory service manual)
Good luck!
---------------------------------------------------
Hook up fuel pressure gauge on the schrader valve on the fuel rail
Start engine and bring to normal operating temperature.
Observe test gauge. Normal operating pressure should be 49.2 psi (plus or minus 5 psi)
Shut engine off.
Pressure should not fall below 30 psi for five minutes.
If pressure falls below 30 psi, it must be determined if a fuel injector, the check valve within the fuel pump module, or a fuel tube/line is leaking. An adaptor tool/hose included with the fuel pressure gauge can help you with this. Consult gauge manual for more information on this but here is basically how it works:
*Turn the engine off and immediately clamp the fuel line at the adaptor hose. Watch the pressure gauge and see how long it takes to lose pressure.
*If the pressure remains at 49 psi for an extended period of time then the problem is in the tank - possibly the check valve. If the pressure falls below 49 psi fairly rapidly then the problem is probably a leaky fuel injector.
You can limp a check valve problem along indefinitely if you wish as it doesn't mean the fuel pump itself is going bad. Normally, the check valve is replaced as an entire assembly as you have to drop the gas tank to access the assembly. Fuel pump assembly consists of fuel pump, regulator, check valve, filter. If you do replace the fuel pump assembly, purchase a high quality OEM style unit. Some cheap aftermarket assemblies don’t hold up and fail prematurely.
2. Get a FRESH reading of codes and post the exact codes here for comment. We really need the exact code numbers in order to help you.
3. If you get stuck here and it appears that you might be at that point, you really should get this vehicle on a SCAN TOOL that can look at all of the engine management sensors real time. This is an extremely valuable tool that can save you a lot of heartache.
Other than your driveability symptoms, here are Some troubleshooting tips for extended crank times and to verify if "pressure drop" is in spec. (from factory service manual)
Good luck!
---------------------------------------------------
Hook up fuel pressure gauge on the schrader valve on the fuel rail
Start engine and bring to normal operating temperature.
Observe test gauge. Normal operating pressure should be 49.2 psi (plus or minus 5 psi)
Shut engine off.
Pressure should not fall below 30 psi for five minutes.
If pressure falls below 30 psi, it must be determined if a fuel injector, the check valve within the fuel pump module, or a fuel tube/line is leaking. An adaptor tool/hose included with the fuel pressure gauge can help you with this. Consult gauge manual for more information on this but here is basically how it works:
*Turn the engine off and immediately clamp the fuel line at the adaptor hose. Watch the pressure gauge and see how long it takes to lose pressure.
*If the pressure remains at 49 psi for an extended period of time then the problem is in the tank - possibly the check valve. If the pressure falls below 49 psi fairly rapidly then the problem is probably a leaky fuel injector.
You can limp a check valve problem along indefinitely if you wish as it doesn't mean the fuel pump itself is going bad. Normally, the check valve is replaced as an entire assembly as you have to drop the gas tank to access the assembly. Fuel pump assembly consists of fuel pump, regulator, check valve, filter. If you do replace the fuel pump assembly, purchase a high quality OEM style unit. Some cheap aftermarket assemblies don’t hold up and fail prematurely.
Last edited by tjwalker; Jan 7, 2011 at 06:19 AM.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 35
Likes: 1
From: Ohio
Year: 2001
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 L
Also, heres something new the Jeep is doing (past 3 days), after it sits at night it starts in the morning like my Brand New Battery of a little over a week is going bad...So I took to Autozone to have Starter, Alt, and Battery tested. All passed, but said Battery was only at 78%. What is draining my battery, this is a stock Jeep other then Cd player that was in it when purchased and after market component speakers, no amp, no subs involved? And why didn't it do this with the old battery I just replaced...ok i guess it did, it went DEAD! I bought a good battery so I thought.
CF Veteran
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,952
Likes: 17
Model: Cherokee
Its not a fuel issue, 20psi at the rail is normal for start up
there is an TSB about the 00' & 01' XJ's having an issue with fuel vaporization in fuel injector #3 due to high heat from the exhaust manifold. The fix is a little heat sleeve for the #3 injector, but some heat tape will do the dame thing.
there is an TSB about the 00' & 01' XJ's having an issue with fuel vaporization in fuel injector #3 due to high heat from the exhaust manifold. The fix is a little heat sleeve for the #3 injector, but some heat tape will do the dame thing.
To the OP,
Do a fuel pressure leakdown test before spending anymore money on parts. Post up your results.
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
From: Greencastle, Indiana
Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
I am having the same issues as Peeper. I have a '99 stock XJ. I had a situation when I got to 1/4 tank of gas and it seemed like the more pushed down on the accelerator pedal that it would drop my RPM's down, so I had to feather the accelerator pedal until it finally just shook and died. Started right up but would die under a load. I finally got it some premium gas and SeaFoam and it's better but still worries me as it is happening occasionally.
Dukie564, why do you say the O2 Sensor needs replaced? I have thought about doing this on mine as they are stock and it's 120,000 miles and a '99. How many O2 sensors are there, where are they, and how do you replace them?
Dukie564, why do you say the O2 Sensor needs replaced? I have thought about doing this on mine as they are stock and it's 120,000 miles and a '99. How many O2 sensors are there, where are they, and how do you replace them?