ABS Removal-Mortal Sin?
11-09-2013, 06:17 AM
#48
CF Veteran
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lost in the wilds of Virginia
Posts: 7,964
Received 952 Likes
on
767 Posts
Year: 1998 Classic (I'll get it running soon....) and 02 Grand
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
<sigh>
Yes, and as has already been pointed out, you need to test the SAME vehicle to see a real comparison, and more than that, you have to test CORRECTLY.
When vehicles are tested for braking distance, they simply get the vehicle to speed and stomp on the brake pedal to the point of lock up. Under those test conditions, ABS will win every time. On pavement. Hands down, no contest.
That test will not show what a skilled driver can do. Skilled drivers do not stomp on the brakes til they lock up. That's what NON-skilled drivers do.
Skilled drivers feather the brake pedal so that the wheels never lock up. This is a skill which requires intentional practice.
Most drivers never practice anything - they just get in and drive. They have no clue what their vehicle can do at the limits. They have no idea what those limits are. They just drive, and when an emergency pushes them to the limits, they do the wrong thing because they don't know any better.
Why do skilled drivers feather the brake pedal so that the wheels never lock up?
Because locked up tires slide. They don't grab.
That sliding actually melts the rubber that is in contact with the road, and that thin layer of melted rubber is like a lubricant. Can you say Slip-N-Slide? That's what happens in a lock-up.
Watch a film of this happening sometime. When that point of melting rubber is reached, you can see the hood of the car lift, as the deceleration forces are suddenly reduced. The springs, which had been compressed by those deceleration forces, rebound and raise the front of the car back up closer to a normal, unloaded condition. It's sudden and dramatic.
I've seen this happen in real life, in the worst possible location, my rear-view mirror. I watched the idiot behind me lock his brakes, I saw his nose dive under the braking forces (as usual), and I watched it come up again as his tires hit that melting point. Not fun.
ABS is intended to prevent lockup. That's how it works. In fact, that's what ABS means - Antilock Braking System.
http://ask.cars.com/2007/06/abs_antilock_br.html
ABS is a computerized substitute for skill. As such, under most conditions, it works better than an unskilled driver. It's an attempt to give the lazy & unthinking masses the benefits of a particular skill without the work required to attain the skill.
It's NEVER better than a skilled driver.
11-09-2013, 08:30 AM
#49
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
<sigh>
Yes, and as has already been pointed out, you need to test the SAME vehicle to see a real comparison, and more than that, you have to test CORRECTLY.
When vehicles are tested for braking distance, they simply get the vehicle to speed and stomp on the brake pedal to the point of lock up. Under those test conditions, ABS will win every time. On pavement. Hands down, no contest.
That test will not show what a skilled driver can do. Skilled drivers do not stomp on the brakes til they lock up. That's what NON-skilled drivers do.
Skilled drivers feather the brake pedal so that the wheels never lock up. This is a skill which requires intentional practice.
Most drivers never practice anything - they just get in and drive. They have no clue what their vehicle can do at the limits. They have no idea what those limits are. They just drive, and when an emergency pushes them to the limits, they do the wrong thing because they don't know any better.
Why do skilled drivers feather the brake pedal so that the wheels never lock up?
Because locked up tires slide. They don't grab.
That sliding actually melts the rubber that is in contact with the road, and that thin layer of melted rubber is like a lubricant. Can you say Slip-N-Slide? That's what happens in a lock-up.
Watch a film of this happening sometime. When that point of melting rubber is reached, you can see the hood of the car lift, as the deceleration forces are suddenly reduced. The springs, which had been compressed by those deceleration forces, rebound and raise the front of the car back up closer to a normal, unloaded condition. It's sudden and dramatic.
I've seen this happen in real life, in the worst possible location, my rear-view mirror. I watched the idiot behind me lock his brakes, I saw his nose dive under the braking forces (as usual), and I watched it come up again as his tires hit that melting point. Not fun.
ABS is intended to prevent lockup. That's how it works. In fact, that's what ABS means - Antilock Braking System.
http://ask.cars.com/2007/06/abs_antilock_br.html
Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwwXukJaTlM
ABS is a computerized substitute for skill. As such, under most conditions, it works better than an unskilled driver. It's an attempt to give the lazy & unthinking masses the benefits of a particular skill without the work required to attain the skill.
It's NEVER better than a skilled driver.
11-09-2013, 09:48 AM
#50
CF Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: salem, OR
Posts: 1,023
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1997
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L
Easy comparison:
Computer abs, only does what it knows. Meaning it does the same thing over and over.
Human abs(another name for skill) isn't programmed to do just one style, we unlike computer can make better decisions on the fly for this kinda of stuff. Skilled driver without abs will do much better than a unskilled driver with abs
11-09-2013, 10:44 AM
#51
CF Veteran
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,018
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
13 Posts
Year: 1988
Model: Cherokee
Engine: AMC242
The difference? I know my rifle shoots better than I do. How do I know? I can put my M4gery in a machine rest and drill a one-hole group at 100m, 10 shots, using production ammo.
I can take the rifle out of the rest, use ten rounds from the same box, using the same lane, immediately afterward on a still day, and my 10-shot group is about 2" wide.
But, I don't blame the rifle.
I can brake faster without ABS than I can with it. I can stop my 88 XJ from 80mph faster and shorter than I can stop my wife's 2005 Suzuki Verona - and she has four-wheel disc, 4WAL, and my loaded XJ is about 800# heavier.
And, it's not just me - SHE can stop my truck faster and shorter than her car!
"Professional motorsports" operates under vastly different conditions than road driving. Bear in mind you'll have a couple dozen highly competitive people, swapping paint, typically in excess of 150mph. In terms of "collision avoidance," they are right on the bleeding edge of driving skill. ABS for them is not an attempt to abdicate responsibility, it is an attempt to further reduce reaction times to changing driving circumstances.
Don't get me started on the "wannabees" you often find that think they're professional high-speed drivers - I've fallen straight down faster than they will ever hope to drive. And driven faster yet.
Road driving is far more defensive than track driving. As a result, you will have increased time to react, increased distance to react, and simply do not require as much in the way of "safety systems" as you'd find on a "professional" vehicle.
Therefore, you are comparing apples to ourang-outangs. Your comparison is semantically and logically null, and should therefore be disregarded.
(And yes, I've been on some of those "performance driving" boards - they're the same sort of people who like to have a Monster Tach with functioning "SHIFT" light - on a vehicle equipped with an automatic transmission! I'll let that sink in...)
11-09-2013, 09:42 PM
#53
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Yeah. Laughed at by the same people who don't realise that their rifle shoots better than they do.
The difference? I know my rifle shoots better than I do. How do I know? I can put my M4gery in a machine rest and drill a one-hole group at 100m, 10 shots, using production ammo.
I can take the rifle out of the rest, use ten rounds from the same box, using the same lane, immediately afterward on a still day, and my 10-shot group is about 2" wide.
But, I don't blame the rifle.
I can brake faster without ABS than I can with it. I can stop my 88 XJ from 80mph faster and shorter than I can stop my wife's 2005 Suzuki Verona - and she has four-wheel disc, 4WAL, and my loaded XJ is about 800# heavier.
And, it's not just me - SHE can stop my truck faster and shorter than her car!
"Professional motorsports" operates under vastly different conditions than road driving. Bear in mind you'll have a couple dozen highly competitive people, swapping paint, typically in excess of 150mph. In terms of "collision avoidance," they are right on the bleeding edge of driving skill. ABS for them is not an attempt to abdicate responsibility, it is an attempt to further reduce reaction times to changing driving circumstances.
Don't get me started on the "wannabees" you often find that think they're professional high-speed drivers - I've fallen straight down faster than they will ever hope to drive. And driven faster yet.
Road driving is far more defensive than track driving. As a result, you will have increased time to react, increased distance to react, and simply do not require as much in the way of "safety systems" as you'd find on a "professional" vehicle.
Therefore, you are comparing apples to ourang-outangs. Your comparison is semantically and logically null, and should therefore be disregarded.
(And yes, I've been on some of those "performance driving" boards - they're the same sort of people who like to have a Monster Tach with functioning "SHIFT" light - on a vehicle equipped with an automatic transmission! I'll let that sink in...)
Your whole post is comparing apples to oranges and therefore should be discarded... Seriously do some research on high end ABS with brake proportion control, it doesn't matter how good you think you are. You cannot change brake bias on the fly, and the abs will stop shorter.
Last edited by dynasty_v6; 11-09-2013 at 09:44 PM.
11-09-2013, 09:47 PM
#54
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
What does a sports car forum have to do with it? Just because you have a sport car, doesn't mean you're skilled.
Easy comparison:
Computer abs, only does what it knows. Meaning it does the same thing over and over.
Human abs(another name for skill) isn't programmed to do just one style, we unlike computer can make better decisions on the fly for this kinda of stuff. Skilled driver without abs will do much better than a unskilled driver with abs
11-10-2013, 07:03 AM
#57
CF Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,254
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Anyone who thinks ABS can stop your vehicle in a shorter distance than a skilled driver has never heard of the SKILL of Threshold Braking.
It's when you hold the brake to just about locking up the wheels and this can and is taught. They even teach it in racing schools.
I've driven them all and even now I drive Tractor Trailer rigs with ABS. Not a big fan of it I'll tell you. Nothing will scare you to death faster then when you have 100 000 lbs of rig and load and some soccer mom decides she forgot something and slams on her brakes and you have to bring all that to a stop. And you can't because the brake system thinks it's smarter than you. I have spoken to a LOT of drivers who are scared ****less of the rigs they drive because they can't get them to stop in a safe distance.
I'm taking about panic stops! Not the run of the mill "Oh there is a red light stops"
It's when you hold the brake to just about locking up the wheels and this can and is taught. They even teach it in racing schools.
I've driven them all and even now I drive Tractor Trailer rigs with ABS. Not a big fan of it I'll tell you. Nothing will scare you to death faster then when you have 100 000 lbs of rig and load and some soccer mom decides she forgot something and slams on her brakes and you have to bring all that to a stop. And you can't because the brake system thinks it's smarter than you. I have spoken to a LOT of drivers who are scared ****less of the rigs they drive because they can't get them to stop in a safe distance.
I'm taking about panic stops! Not the run of the mill "Oh there is a red light stops"
11-10-2013, 09:47 AM
#58
Herp Derp Jerp
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Parham, ON
Posts: 18,251
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
11 Posts
Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L OBD-II
I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that she'd get what it deserves...
I take it ABS is on there to prevent jack knifing on ice? What good is an ABS tractor if you're pulling a standard trailer?
I take it ABS is on there to prevent jack knifing on ice? What good is an ABS tractor if you're pulling a standard trailer?
11-10-2013, 05:08 PM
#59
CF Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,254
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
I joke that if a plane fell out of the sky and landed on top of our rigs we (the truck driver) would still be responsible for the accident. However it really isn't that funny. We probably would be in trouble somehow.
The ABS on our rigs will automatically default to normal braking if the trailer's ABS is not equipped or is not working probably. You can tell if you've ever wondered about that little yellow light on the rear left hand side of the trailer just above the red running light. If it's working it will light up when we are braking.
And to stop jackknifing I find the ABS doesn't help that, in any way, shape or form. Just scares the crap out of me cause now the trailer is doing bunny hops. Doesn't go over to well when you have liquor on the back all shattered from the hopping.
11-10-2013, 06:09 PM
#60
CF Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: salem, OR
Posts: 1,023
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1997
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L
Yup talking about the wrong thing there, that's not abs son. I think you need to learn how to brake properly lol