ABS Removal-Mortal Sin?
11-02-2013, 09:25 PM
#31
CF Veteran
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lost in the wilds of Virginia
Posts: 7,964
Received 951 Likes
on
767 Posts
Year: 1998 Classic (I'll get it running soon....) and 02 Grand
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
McDonnell-Douglas Aviation has an interesting policy. If you want to be a design engineer, fine. However, you spend your first five years not designing, but as a mechanic. Why? So you know to design something that can be serviced.
This needs to happen in the automotive world. BADLY
Nobody should be designing planes, cars, computers, or anything else until they've wrenched on them a while. It's amazing what a few skinned knuckles will do for a young head full of book learning.
11-03-2013, 02:40 AM
#33
CF Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,302
Likes: 0
Received 19 Likes
on
16 Posts
Model: Cherokee
The bad is that the driver has full control over the brakes.
Having driven on winter roads for decades before ABS came along, I'm uncomfortable having electronics make braking decisions for me. Out it goes.
11-03-2013, 02:56 AM
#34
CF Veteran
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,018
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
13 Posts
Year: 1988
Model: Cherokee
Engine: AMC242
Why you'd need it on an automatic, I've no idea.
TRIVIA - What was the last automatic transmission that could actually be push-started (like a manual,) and why was this possible?
11-03-2013, 08:59 AM
#36
Seasoned Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Groveland, CA
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Year: 1996 Two Door Wagoneer
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L
I push started (actually pull started) a 61 Buick with 401 nailhead and auto. Had to get it going scary fast to do it.
11-03-2013, 09:58 AM
#38
Seasoned Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 482
Received 90 Likes
on
65 Posts
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Very true, especially the part about few are that skilled. I'll take my ABS any day of the week. Especially when I have all three kids with me. I grew up and learned to drive on non ABS cars. If you take the time to educate yourself about ABS it can be a very useful and useable tool.
11-03-2013, 01:51 PM
#39
CF Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,302
Likes: 0
Received 19 Likes
on
16 Posts
Model: Cherokee
The hidden little ABS secrets are that it can actually lengthen stopping distances on gravel or unpacked snow (which the NHTSA admits), and doesn't always help an unskilled driver avoid accidents if they don't understand that the 'limits of traction' problem also applies to steering.
It does give unskilled drivers their steering ability back, which they promptly misuse, causing the front wheels to lose traction. They "stomp and steer", right into a steering-wheel induced skid.
11-03-2013, 10:04 PM
#40
CF Veteran
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,018
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
13 Posts
Year: 1988
Model: Cherokee
Engine: AMC242
Yup.
The hidden little ABS secrets are that it can actually lengthen stopping distances on gravel or unpacked snow (which the NHTSA admits), and doesn't always help an unskilled driver avoid accidents if they don't understand that the 'limits of traction' problem also applies to steering.
It does give unskilled drivers their steering ability back, which they promptly misuse, causing the front wheels to lose traction. They "stomp and steer", right into a steering-wheel induced skid.
The hidden little ABS secrets are that it can actually lengthen stopping distances on gravel or unpacked snow (which the NHTSA admits), and doesn't always help an unskilled driver avoid accidents if they don't understand that the 'limits of traction' problem also applies to steering.
It does give unskilled drivers their steering ability back, which they promptly misuse, causing the front wheels to lose traction. They "stomp and steer", right into a steering-wheel induced skid.
And older driver, trained without this stuff, can drive anything. A new driver? Not so much - they're destined to screw it up...
We're not helping drivers with this stuff, we're handicapping them. The #1 safety device you could possibly have is that mushy kilo of grey stuff between your ears - if you don't learn how to use it, nothing else can help you.
11-03-2013, 10:42 PM
#41
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
11-04-2013, 12:33 AM
#42
CF Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,302
Likes: 0
Received 19 Likes
on
16 Posts
Model: Cherokee
Give a driver an inch more safety and they tend to consume it by driving differently than they would had the 'safety' device not been there. Thus when they DO lose control it's often at higher speed and under worse circumstances.
Why are you likely to see AWD vehicles in the ditch on a snowy day, despite their inherent greater traction?
Because Sally Homemaker didn't notice the road was slippery, the AWD hid that fact from her, just as it's supposed to do. So she drove as though she had traction, consuming the safety advantage AWD offers.
The rear wheel drive guy OTOH noticed he had no traction while backing out the driveway and drove differently.
In 1996, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety published a news release titled “Antilock Brakes Don’t Reduce Fatal Crashes; People in Cars With Antilocks at Greater Risks- But Unclear Why.”
In 1998, Leonard Evans of General Motors’ Global R&D Operations checked NHTSA’s ABS crash data and concluded “it is unlikely that on dry roads ABS can materially reduce risk” and, more shockingly, “ABS is associated with a 44% increase in rollover risk.”
In 1999, the Society of Automotive Engineers reported that “ABS was found to be associated with a 51 percent increase in fatal rollover crashes on dry roads.
For fatal side impact crashes, ABS produced a 69 percent increase for unfavorable road conditions, and a 61 percent increase for favorable road conditions.”
In 1998, Leonard Evans of General Motors’ Global R&D Operations checked NHTSA’s ABS crash data and concluded “it is unlikely that on dry roads ABS can materially reduce risk” and, more shockingly, “ABS is associated with a 44% increase in rollover risk.”
In 1999, the Society of Automotive Engineers reported that “ABS was found to be associated with a 51 percent increase in fatal rollover crashes on dry roads.
For fatal side impact crashes, ABS produced a 69 percent increase for unfavorable road conditions, and a 61 percent increase for favorable road conditions.”
Yet the vehicles, on paper, should be able to stop better. What gives?
The ABS increased the threshold for loss of control and unskilled drivers merely consume that increase by driving right up to the new limit. When they do crash, it's under worse circumstances.
Last edited by Radi; 11-04-2013 at 12:59 AM.
11-04-2013, 12:47 AM
#43
CF Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 5,302
Likes: 0
Received 19 Likes
on
16 Posts
Model: Cherokee
The cars with the best braking systems would likely still have the best braking systems without the ABS.
You'd have to do a comparison between the exact same car with ABS and again without for it to be meaningful.
And then, on what sort of road surface? On loose snow, gravel and sand ABS always loses. A locked wheel will build up those loose road materials in front of it like a plow, helping it stop. ABS cannot do that.
You'd have to do a comparison between the exact same car with ABS and again without for it to be meaningful.
And then, on what sort of road surface? On loose snow, gravel and sand ABS always loses. A locked wheel will build up those loose road materials in front of it like a plow, helping it stop. ABS cannot do that.
Last edited by Radi; 11-04-2013 at 01:03 AM.
11-04-2013, 10:28 PM
#44
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
The cars with the best braking systems would likely still have the best braking systems without the ABS.
You'd have to do a comparison between the exact same car with ABS and again without for it to be meaningful.
And then, on what sort of road surface? On loose snow, gravel and sand ABS always loses. A locked wheel will build up those loose road materials in front of it like a plow, helping it stop. ABS cannot do that.
