3-link long arm
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From: errrvre where
Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee
Engine: I6 4.0L HO, JBA headers, 99 intake, #703 injectors
Sorry to hear that you went with a radias arm ssystem. I think you will be un happy with the way it performs offroad. I have run both systems in the past.. Had the Rusty's LA back in the day, and I am currently running the RK 3 link set up. I think the next rig I build will have the PolyPerformance 3 link. I like there link mounts better.
All the same add some quality disco's, and the ZJ sway bar. Also add some limit straps... you will really need them with the radias arm setup.
All the same add some quality disco's, and the ZJ sway bar. Also add some limit straps... you will really need them with the radias arm setup.
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Thread Starter
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Joined: Feb 2010
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From: errrvre where
Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee
Engine: I6 4.0L HO, JBA headers, 99 intake, #703 injectors
both are good just one is better..
for what wheeling and driveing i do now i should be fine but i deffinatly want to fav that link and try that setup when i get some extra money.
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From: errrvre where
Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee
Engine: I6 4.0L HO, JBA headers, 99 intake, #703 injectors
ugh... answer the question from a geometrical view point. what are the pros/cons? First off, a 3 link has the quick selling point thagt it does allow for more droop axle articulation. This is primarily because it removes the bind that is caused by the 4 link set up... A long arm with an upper control arm attatched to it is a 4 link, but not a true one. The stock set-up is a true 4 link as is a short arm kit. The "off the lower" link set up causes a bind in droop and puts a tremendous ammount of pressure on the opposing lower control arm mount. That's why a lot of companies sell heavier lower control arm mounts. They can tear it right off the tupe. I have even seen them twist a D30 tube in the chunk. Heim joints on all control arm ends can help, but most ppl are "budgeting" in their kits and heims rais the price quickly.
The 3 link conqueres the droop bind issue, but creates a new issue. How is caster adjusted and braced w the front axle? Yup, the upper control arm. Don't think for a second that your dana 30 will not flex under hard breaking when presented with only one upper control arm. *know this* No Vehicle Has Ever rolled off the assembly line with a 3 link front end. I'm not against them, but it does creat a fail point and when it might fail could cost you more than money.
Skyjacker kinda had it right when they used an upper axle truss to move the control arm mounts up and stayed with the factory mounting points. This relieved the bind issues and allowed for a lot of droop. Also they were available with full heims. Too bad they got all shotty a few years ago.
AND... I find myself mentioning this a LOT... I know we're not taking our jeeps to UROC, but look at what the PROS run from time to time. Their stuff has to "not break" and I don't see any of them running 3 links. Or look at the Jeepspeed guys set-up's...
All I would have to do to run a 3 link would be to remove one of my upper control arms. Doesn't make sense to me...
The 3 link conqueres the droop bind issue, but creates a new issue. How is caster adjusted and braced w the front axle? Yup, the upper control arm. Don't think for a second that your dana 30 will not flex under hard breaking when presented with only one upper control arm. *know this* No Vehicle Has Ever rolled off the assembly line with a 3 link front end. I'm not against them, but it does creat a fail point and when it might fail could cost you more than money.
Skyjacker kinda had it right when they used an upper axle truss to move the control arm mounts up and stayed with the factory mounting points. This relieved the bind issues and allowed for a lot of droop. Also they were available with full heims. Too bad they got all shotty a few years ago.
AND... I find myself mentioning this a LOT... I know we're not taking our jeeps to UROC, but look at what the PROS run from time to time. Their stuff has to "not break" and I don't see any of them running 3 links. Or look at the Jeepspeed guys set-up's...
All I would have to do to run a 3 link would be to remove one of my upper control arms. Doesn't make sense to me...
or i just drive over top of them
but..
if all you have to do to run a 3 link is remove an upper arm.. wouldnt that mean your still running short arms with one removed.. it makes sence to me i just dont understand why you would do it.. in the other forum they said it started because of the dana 60 and thats all i remember..
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ugh... answer the question from a geometrical view point. what are the pros/cons? First off, a 3 link has the quick selling point thagt it does allow for more droop axle articulation. This is primarily because it removes the bind that is caused by the 4 link set up... A long arm with an upper control arm attatched to it is a 4 link, but not a true one. The stock set-up is a true 4 link as is a short arm kit. The "off the lower" link set up causes a bind in droop and puts a tremendous ammount of pressure on the opposing lower control arm mount. That's why a lot of companies sell heavier lower control arm mounts. They can tear it right off the tupe. I have even seen them twist a D30 tube in the chunk. Heim joints on all control arm ends can help, but most ppl are "budgeting" in their kits and heims rais the price quickly.The 3 link conqueres the droop bind issue, but creates a new issue. How is caster adjusted and braced w the front axle? Yup, the upper control arm. Don't think for a second that your dana 30 will not flex under hard breaking when presented with only one upper control arm. *know this* No Vehicle Has Ever rolled off the assembly line with a 3 link front end. I'm not against them, but it does creat a fail point and when it might fail could cost you more than money. Skyjacker kinda had it right when they used an upper axle truss to move the control arm mounts up and stayed with the factory mounting points. This relieved the bind issues and allowed for a lot of droop. Also they were available with full heims. Too bad they got all shotty a few years ago.AND... I find myself mentioning this a LOT... I know we're not taking our jeeps to UROC, but look at what the PROS run from time to time. Their stuff has to "not break" and I don't see any of them running 3 links. Or look at the Jeepspeed guys set-up's...All I would have to do to run a 3 link would be to remove one of my upper control arms. Doesn't make sense to me...
but theres a lot of false information in your post.
you can not run solely heims with a 4 link or radius arm. both systems bind.
and plenty of comp rigs run 3 links and not break. build them strong enough and its not an issue.
the reason you USUALLY see 4 links on those rigs is because they favor the triangulated 4 link, which works great when you have the room (unlike on the front of an xj) eliminates the need for a trackbar. and allows you to run a full hydro steering setup without having to worry about bumpsteer. which is a big deal when running really large tires, easier to turn and no steering linkage to worry about.
i have had a 3 link for maybe 4 years. i have had great brakes and 35-37s in that time. i have never had any axle housing problems due to braking. and have never heard of anyone having these problems.
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ktmrracer419,
sry... you are right. I try to answer questions without writing a book.
what a COMP rig will run as a 3 link is not what IR or RK are selling.
A dana 30 needs all the help it can get and "I feel" that a 3 link is way too much leverage on only 1 upper attatchment to the suspension. Especially if un-trussed. Trail only maybe, but I drive like a stuntman on the pavement and would never risk the failure. Oh, I've hot a 4.9 stroker and all the go-fast mods... I spent over 1k in just steering and bracing for peace of mind against failure...
You said that you ran 35's and 37's and had no braking issues... On a D30? We can't be talking about the same kind of set-up's.
Think leverage. 33's on a D30, attatched by 1 factory upper control arm mount with no trussing. You know that will twist that flimsy tube under hard breaking. Life would suk tremendously if it happened to let go in a particularly intense situation where you need the brakes working properly.
In fact... you can twist a D30 with a small rachet strap if you hoot to the top of an upper mount and cross-member and pull it bak. That is how I get my rear control arm bolts in. 1st one goes in easy, but it takes tugging to get the 2nd one in.
On a TRUE 4 link, you can't run only heims. Correct. That is why nobody sells them that way. Running them on the axle end is reccommended though. There are a few manufactures that run Jonny joints at the axle points, but they are pricey. RE is the trend setter there.
I can't remember right now what else requited explaining... Oh ya,,, If you are looking to eliminate the dumbest invention ever (trac-bar) then you aren't looking at an IR DIY lift kit like the guy positng the thread. Reverse triangulated 4 link is daddy and strong. If you figure that out on the front of a cherokee, post the thread and I will follow in suit...
sry... you are right. I try to answer questions without writing a book.
what a COMP rig will run as a 3 link is not what IR or RK are selling.
A dana 30 needs all the help it can get and "I feel" that a 3 link is way too much leverage on only 1 upper attatchment to the suspension. Especially if un-trussed. Trail only maybe, but I drive like a stuntman on the pavement and would never risk the failure. Oh, I've hot a 4.9 stroker and all the go-fast mods... I spent over 1k in just steering and bracing for peace of mind against failure...
You said that you ran 35's and 37's and had no braking issues... On a D30? We can't be talking about the same kind of set-up's.
Think leverage. 33's on a D30, attatched by 1 factory upper control arm mount with no trussing. You know that will twist that flimsy tube under hard breaking. Life would suk tremendously if it happened to let go in a particularly intense situation where you need the brakes working properly.
In fact... you can twist a D30 with a small rachet strap if you hoot to the top of an upper mount and cross-member and pull it bak. That is how I get my rear control arm bolts in. 1st one goes in easy, but it takes tugging to get the 2nd one in.
On a TRUE 4 link, you can't run only heims. Correct. That is why nobody sells them that way. Running them on the axle end is reccommended though. There are a few manufactures that run Jonny joints at the axle points, but they are pricey. RE is the trend setter there.
I can't remember right now what else requited explaining... Oh ya,,, If you are looking to eliminate the dumbest invention ever (trac-bar) then you aren't looking at an IR DIY lift kit like the guy positng the thread. Reverse triangulated 4 link is daddy and strong. If you figure that out on the front of a cherokee, post the thread and I will follow in suit...
Last edited by Guest09; Sep 20, 2010 at 04:22 PM.
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AND... I find myself mentioning this a LOT... I know we're not taking our jeeps to UROC, but look at what the PROS run from time to time. Their stuff has to "not break" and I don't see any of them running 3 links. Or look at the Jeepspeed guys set-up's...
5 out of 6 comp rigs that I can think of off the top of my head run 3 links up front.
All I would have to do to run a 3 link would be to remove one of my upper control arms. Doesn't make sense to me...
Sure, that would be a 3-link... But not even close to a properly built 3 link. Huge difference there.
5 out of 6 comp rigs that I can think of off the top of my head run 3 links up front.
All I would have to do to run a 3 link would be to remove one of my upper control arms. Doesn't make sense to me...
Sure, that would be a 3-link... But not even close to a properly built 3 link. Huge difference there.
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well ya got me... I don't actually go to UROC competitions. I do however go to Gray-rok all the time and I NEVER personally see it. Different circles I guess... A 3 link wouldn't even hold up to the ponies those guys run. The massive 4 links they run come apart often enough. 5 out of 6 huh?? Pics please!!! Cuz it's not team red bull, maxis, randy's, southern OR, BFG, bluetorch, EVO mfg, poison spyder,,,, i can't remember any of the other guys that were there last month....
I'm going to go back through the last several issues of Crawl and see if I can spot even one. Better yet... I subscribe to 3 jeep mags. Why dont I EVER see them there either? Is John Cappa just missing this awesome revelation of the suspension world?
If I were to remove the upper control arm on my RE kit on my Tj, or the upper control arm on my rusty's kit on my Xj, How much different would that be from the IR or RK kit that has been mentioned in this thread?
I like the red btw. Is it somehow indicitive of the bogus information that I am posting or just an emphatic way of boasting your awesome knowledge of the geometric accuracy of the cherokee suspension, articulation and design... ha
Let's flip the scrip. What is the possible advantage, and don't say flex, to removing a link?
I can see an advantage of a 3 linking as it is done in the rear of a Wj, but on the front of a DD/ "sometimes I go off-road" rig....C'mon man... We all have to agree that anyone is certainly entitled to do whatever they want to do, however they want to do it to their jeep. Or anything else for that matter. However, there are certian mods that are not as safe and practial as others. A "bolt on" 3 link front suspension on a unibody vehicle is one such thing. I can't even see hoe they are DOT approved. Are they?
Edit: call me obsessed, but I can't find a Comp rig with a bolt on 3 link in front. I've looked everywhere I can think of including google...
I'm going to go back through the last several issues of Crawl and see if I can spot even one. Better yet... I subscribe to 3 jeep mags. Why dont I EVER see them there either? Is John Cappa just missing this awesome revelation of the suspension world?
If I were to remove the upper control arm on my RE kit on my Tj, or the upper control arm on my rusty's kit on my Xj, How much different would that be from the IR or RK kit that has been mentioned in this thread?
I like the red btw. Is it somehow indicitive of the bogus information that I am posting or just an emphatic way of boasting your awesome knowledge of the geometric accuracy of the cherokee suspension, articulation and design... ha
Let's flip the scrip. What is the possible advantage, and don't say flex, to removing a link?
I can see an advantage of a 3 linking as it is done in the rear of a Wj, but on the front of a DD/ "sometimes I go off-road" rig....C'mon man... We all have to agree that anyone is certainly entitled to do whatever they want to do, however they want to do it to their jeep. Or anything else for that matter. However, there are certian mods that are not as safe and practial as others. A "bolt on" 3 link front suspension on a unibody vehicle is one such thing. I can't even see hoe they are DOT approved. Are they?
Edit: call me obsessed, but I can't find a Comp rig with a bolt on 3 link in front. I've looked everywhere I can think of including google...
just because you havent seen it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
and what exactly are you referring to a comp rig as? full blown crazy werock or koh buggy? you never see bolt on kits on any of those regardless of it being a 4 link, 3 link, radius arm, or whatever.
and if you are talking about a superstock class comp. they run 3 links pretty consistently up here, myself being one of them.
removing an arm on a factory 4 link is nothing like a properly built 3 link. (iron rock doesnt count) a 3 link with primarily rubber bushings will lead to low bushing life and a hoppity,wrappity front end. not to mention you will have a 10 mm bolt keeping your front axle from twisting around.
i use solid stock, cartridge joints and 5/8" bolts for my lower links
and 1 3/4 x .250 dom with 7/8 chromo heims using 5/8" bolts for my upper link and trackbar. on paper that is plenty stronger than a off the shelf kit, nevermind taking one link off.
and the dot approved argument doesnt hold true here. damn near every modification you make to your offroad rig isnt dot approved, but that doesnt make it illegal.
Last edited by ktmracer419; Sep 22, 2010 at 08:35 AM.
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ktmracer419, sweet avatar pic
, you sound like you know what your saying, x2 you win lol
when posted earlier i thought they were talking about BUILDING a 3 link kit, not removing an arm out of the stock setup. if you BUILD it right it will be fine for a wheeling rig, iv never seen a true 3 link on a dd though, so go for it and report back to us
, you sound like you know what your saying, x2 you win lolwhen posted earlier i thought they were talking about BUILDING a 3 link kit, not removing an arm out of the stock setup. if you BUILD it right it will be fine for a wheeling rig, iv never seen a true 3 link on a dd though, so go for it and report back to us
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ktmracer419, sweet avatar pic, you sound like you know what your saying, x2 you win lol
when posted earlier i thought they were talking about BUILDING a 3 link kit, not removing an arm out of the stock setup. if you BUILD it right it will be fine for a wheeling rig, iv never seen a true 3 link on a dd though, so go for it and report back to us
, you sound like you know what your saying, x2 you win lolwhen posted earlier i thought they were talking about BUILDING a 3 link kit, not removing an arm out of the stock setup. if you BUILD it right it will be fine for a wheeling rig, iv never seen a true 3 link on a dd though, so go for it and report back to us
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Coastal-
I was thinking more of the comp buggies I see over on Pirate. Not necessarily rigs like BTF, BFG, PS, ect.
The red was not me trying to look uber cool, or rub anything in your face. It was just me being lazy and not splitting the quote into multiple quotes.
Are we even talking about the same "3 link"? Removing an upper from your Rustys kit, and you have essentially a "wristed" radius arm (also commonly called a 3-link, however it is not a "true" 3-link), with similar unloading characteristics of a full radius arm suspension, however the arms will not be fighting eachother. I have been talking about a true 3 link where all three links connect to the crossmember/frame, not to another arm (radius arm).
Heck, it looks like you are talking about bolt on kits as well.. I must have missed that part. And no, I have never personally seen a bolt on 3-link kit used on a competition buggy.
I am not trying to eBash you here. I am just spreading the knowledge that I have, and hoping to learn some in the process.
It looks like we need to get on the same page before we bash each other further.
Sorry if I came off a bit harsh in my first few posts, it seems I've been spending a bit too much time over on Pirate :flipoff2
I was thinking more of the comp buggies I see over on Pirate. Not necessarily rigs like BTF, BFG, PS, ect.
The red was not me trying to look uber cool, or rub anything in your face. It was just me being lazy and not splitting the quote into multiple quotes.
Are we even talking about the same "3 link"? Removing an upper from your Rustys kit, and you have essentially a "wristed" radius arm (also commonly called a 3-link, however it is not a "true" 3-link), with similar unloading characteristics of a full radius arm suspension, however the arms will not be fighting eachother. I have been talking about a true 3 link where all three links connect to the crossmember/frame, not to another arm (radius arm).
Heck, it looks like you are talking about bolt on kits as well.. I must have missed that part. And no, I have never personally seen a bolt on 3-link kit used on a competition buggy.
I am not trying to eBash you here. I am just spreading the knowledge that I have, and hoping to learn some in the process.
It looks like we need to get on the same page before we bash each other further.
Sorry if I came off a bit harsh in my first few posts, it seems I've been spending a bit too much time over on Pirate :flipoff2