Interior LED Conversions - Everything I know. XJ, TJ, ZJ
04-30-2015, 01:46 PM
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Interior LED Conversions - Everything I know. XJ, TJ, ZJ
I've been doing the LED interior thing for a year and a half now. I don't know everything, but I've put more effort than any sane person would consider reasonable into interior lighting.
So, this first post will be a description of part numbers and the types of lights that have worked best for me in each location. I will also mention any install notes or significant learnings I've made.
The second post I'm reserving for common questions. I also want to get away from using the for-sale thread for things other than selling.
97-01 XJ
Floor wells are 1156. I suggest ones with as little protruding out of the bayonet 'can' as possible. Toss the burnt-toast brown covers that went over the stock lights.
Cluster is size 74. I lot of sites cross reference them with T5, which is a twist LED that sometimes can work. Skip that nonsense and go with 74 that fit into the existing twist sockets. You'll need five for the backlight. If you want to replace warning lights, turn signals, or any other info light, you'll need to get a twist type T5 or T4.7 that is of the same style as stock. Most of the cheapo T5 leds on ebay won't work. It's easy to see why by comparing the base of a stock dash light to pics of the T5 LEDs that are for sale. Most vendors call them Neo-T5.
Transfer case and transmission are size 194. I suggest the kind that are flat with two LEDs, one on each side. The socket can be rotated so the LEDs aren't pointing directly at the panel. Doing that results in more even lighting. I desoldered the extra resistors on the ones I sold so they wouldn't output so much heat. The heat kills them.
T4.2 for rockers and HVAC, but the HVAC lighting sucks. It's almost not worth messing with unless you wanna pull out the soldering iron and go custom. I recommend flexible light strips, but if you're comfortable soldering and mounting leds inside the climate control panel case, most any LEDs can be made to work.
The dome center is a 44mm festoon with loops. Most of them will face forward, so the light shines at the windshield instead of down. I use specially made versions that will point down, since there don't seem to be any, anywhere.
The reading lamps are 194 as well. I suggest any one of these with a chip on board (leds covered in yellow diffusion material) that fits in the enclosure.
Cargo is a 42mm festoon (fuse) type shorter lights can but fit, but not longer. You can use (knockoff or real) cree types or really anything there, but brightness varies considerably. Again, I recommend chip on board type for their even lighting and overall good value.
OHC, it uses the same 42mm festoon type bulbs / LEDs as the Cargo lamp.
Vanity mirrors use 29mm long festoon type LEDs. I want to come up with a better solution by using backlight panels like are used for cell phones, but it's low on my priorities, unfortunately.
So, this first post will be a description of part numbers and the types of lights that have worked best for me in each location. I will also mention any install notes or significant learnings I've made.
The second post I'm reserving for common questions. I also want to get away from using the for-sale thread for things other than selling.
97-01 XJ
Floor wells are 1156. I suggest ones with as little protruding out of the bayonet 'can' as possible. Toss the burnt-toast brown covers that went over the stock lights.
Cluster is size 74. I lot of sites cross reference them with T5, which is a twist LED that sometimes can work. Skip that nonsense and go with 74 that fit into the existing twist sockets. You'll need five for the backlight. If you want to replace warning lights, turn signals, or any other info light, you'll need to get a twist type T5 or T4.7 that is of the same style as stock. Most of the cheapo T5 leds on ebay won't work. It's easy to see why by comparing the base of a stock dash light to pics of the T5 LEDs that are for sale. Most vendors call them Neo-T5.
Transfer case and transmission are size 194. I suggest the kind that are flat with two LEDs, one on each side. The socket can be rotated so the LEDs aren't pointing directly at the panel. Doing that results in more even lighting. I desoldered the extra resistors on the ones I sold so they wouldn't output so much heat. The heat kills them.
T4.2 for rockers and HVAC, but the HVAC lighting sucks. It's almost not worth messing with unless you wanna pull out the soldering iron and go custom. I recommend flexible light strips, but if you're comfortable soldering and mounting leds inside the climate control panel case, most any LEDs can be made to work.
The dome center is a 44mm festoon with loops. Most of them will face forward, so the light shines at the windshield instead of down. I use specially made versions that will point down, since there don't seem to be any, anywhere.
The reading lamps are 194 as well. I suggest any one of these with a chip on board (leds covered in yellow diffusion material) that fits in the enclosure.
Cargo is a 42mm festoon (fuse) type shorter lights can but fit, but not longer. You can use (knockoff or real) cree types or really anything there, but brightness varies considerably. Again, I recommend chip on board type for their even lighting and overall good value.
OHC, it uses the same 42mm festoon type bulbs / LEDs as the Cargo lamp.
Vanity mirrors use 29mm long festoon type LEDs. I want to come up with a better solution by using backlight panels like are used for cell phones, but it's low on my priorities, unfortunately.
Last edited by Snajo; 07-27-2015 at 04:37 PM.
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sirjoseph (09-15-2020)
05-01-2015, 05:39 PM
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Is this the same for pre 1997? obviously there are no reading lights and some others you mentioned but for the gauge, transfer case, overhead and cargo?
05-02-2015, 06:55 AM
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Every light is different except the sun visor mirror lights. I'll get that info up when I have more time... Probably lunch time next week.
05-11-2015, 08:16 PM
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I don't have time to do a proper update... I'm neck deep in moving. Here's the quick run through of 84-96 as I know it. There are bound to be things I'm missing, so let me know. I'll add this to the main post once I'm setting in back in Utah.
84-96 XJ
Floorwell, Glove Box, Reading/Map Lights: 194 or T10 type. I suggest using a light that's kinda like a mini flashlight... basically a single chip (with one or more LEDs) with a diffusion lens on the end. There are different types based on the effect you want. I suggest the ones with a round lens and as powerful an emitter as possible. Ideally you want to put out light in a hemisphere pattern... ie, if the end of the LED were in the center of a sphere as close to half of it as possible would be lit up.
OHC: 194 / T10 type... I suggest chip-on-board type LEDs set up with two panels on a flat board, one on top and one on bottom. You'll get direct light from the bottom and reflected light from the top. There are limits to how large the panel can be, but bigger is better, all else the same.
Dome lamp center and cargo lamp: 44mm Festoon... with loop or convex fuse type ends. The emitter should point down. I put the looped type in the kits because they work and I have a history using them with the 97+ kit. Also, fuse types of this length are rare... would probably need to be custom made.
So, overall the 84-96 kits use a lot of the same lights. I think it works a bit better, but if I had a larger selection of lights to choose from I might change one here and there. As it is though, I haven't found anything that's a significant enough upgrade to justify stocking another part.
That should cover it for the interior. Instruments are another story. Next time.
84-96 XJ
Floorwell, Glove Box, Reading/Map Lights: 194 or T10 type. I suggest using a light that's kinda like a mini flashlight... basically a single chip (with one or more LEDs) with a diffusion lens on the end. There are different types based on the effect you want. I suggest the ones with a round lens and as powerful an emitter as possible. Ideally you want to put out light in a hemisphere pattern... ie, if the end of the LED were in the center of a sphere as close to half of it as possible would be lit up.
OHC: 194 / T10 type... I suggest chip-on-board type LEDs set up with two panels on a flat board, one on top and one on bottom. You'll get direct light from the bottom and reflected light from the top. There are limits to how large the panel can be, but bigger is better, all else the same.
Dome lamp center and cargo lamp: 44mm Festoon... with loop or convex fuse type ends. The emitter should point down. I put the looped type in the kits because they work and I have a history using them with the 97+ kit. Also, fuse types of this length are rare... would probably need to be custom made.
So, overall the 84-96 kits use a lot of the same lights. I think it works a bit better, but if I had a larger selection of lights to choose from I might change one here and there. As it is though, I haven't found anything that's a significant enough upgrade to justify stocking another part.
That should cover it for the interior. Instruments are another story. Next time.
05-12-2015, 10:07 PM
#7
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84-9 instruments
84-96 XJ Instrument Lights
Part 1 of 4
Gauge Cluster (gauges, turn signals, & high beam indicator): These use a 194 / T10 type light.
1: For these we want light to be put out to the sides instead or in addition to being projected forward (like a flashlight). Primarily look for lighting to the sides similar to how a traditional lantern works. This is desirable because the light that is visible through the cluster is reflected off surfaces within the cluster to produce relatively even lighting. There isn't as much light coming through the cluster as there is in the later model (97-01) design.
2: One significant limitation to the LEDs used in this cluster is that they be a relatively small diameter. This is also the case with transmission and transfer case lamps on all years. Many LEDs available will not easily fit into this cluster design because the plastic used to make the 'casing' for the LED exceeds the diameter of the hole on the cluster. Sometimes the plastic can be trimmed to work or the cluster hole can be widened, but the results will vary widely based on the precision of the work. It can also prevent an easy return to a stock configuration or the use of other LEDs in the future without additional modifications. Basically, measure the 'hole' diameter and find a light that fits.
3. Because of the size issue and durability I look for designs that are made to work in CANBUS based vehicles. CANBUS systems generate error lights when a circuit is drawing less current than is expected, such as when a lamp fails or a standard LED lamp is installed. To satisfy the CANBUS standard, LEDs makers add resistance to the LED circuit design to ensure the module draws as much current as the lamp it is replacing.
This is bad because it draws unnecessary power and because that power is almost entirely converted to heat and extra heat significantly reduces the lifespan of LEDs.
This is good because LED manufacturers must design dissipation systems to deal with the extra heat. Because of this most CANBUS LEDs are not plastic based, but rather circuit board and metal designs and are overall smaller in diameter than the plastic ones.
This is extra good because we can remove the extra resistors (or have them made without them) and end up with a lamp that draws around 15% of the power and produces only 15% of the heat that it was designed to handle. I find these modified designs last longer than unmodified CANBUS LEDs and most non-CANBUS LEDs.
A small con is that CANBUS designs typically cost more (sometimes several times more) than plastic case LEDs.
4. Gauge clusters varied in design between 84 and 96. Some clusters use as few as four lamps and others as many as ten for backlighting.
5. For high beam and turn-signals, white can be used which will retain colors close to stock. Blue or green may also be used in either place with good results. Red shines poorly due to the filter in the cluster than gives the shape of the output and color when used with stock bulbs.
6. For the cluster background white, blue, and green can be used with good results. Generally, if a cluster uses a small number of lamps it is best to stick with white, because blue or green may look dim. If the cluster uses many lamps, like the thirteen lamp '96 tach + speedo cluster I test on, green, blue, and white work very well.
7. Red doesn't work well in the high beam or turn signal locations. Red can work for cluster background lighting, but for best results high powered Red LEDs should be sourced and only used on clusters with ten backlight lamps, such as the 96 mentioned earlier.
8. Dimmer switches don't work well with LEDs. LEDs are either on or off. Once the forward bias (or "on") voltage is reached, the LED will emit. Additional voltage on top of this can produce additional light, but disproportionately produces heat. To dim an LED, the most common method is to adjust the percentage of the time that the LED is on by turning the power to it on and off several thousand times per second. It is theoretically possible to modify the Jeep's lamp circuit to do this, but I've never attempted it. I've heard of it being done but have seen no supporting evidence.
Some will argue that 'expensive' or 'well designed' LEDs will dim like stock bulbs. What the user is likely seeing as good dimming is an LED that has a forward bias voltage of say 2 volts and is simply producing more light (and heat) by being overpowered at 12 volts. There shouldn't be much change in light output when using the dimmer **** on LEDs. Most of the instrument LEDs I use turn on at between 6 and 9 volts and can operate at up to 18 volts for extended periods without failure. (Most of my interior lamps will handle up to 30 volts for short periods, which is the limit of my adjustable power supply.)
Personal note: These considerations regarding color instrument sets are one reason why I'm less excited about them as a product.
Part 1 of 4
Gauge Cluster (gauges, turn signals, & high beam indicator): These use a 194 / T10 type light.
1: For these we want light to be put out to the sides instead or in addition to being projected forward (like a flashlight). Primarily look for lighting to the sides similar to how a traditional lantern works. This is desirable because the light that is visible through the cluster is reflected off surfaces within the cluster to produce relatively even lighting. There isn't as much light coming through the cluster as there is in the later model (97-01) design.
2: One significant limitation to the LEDs used in this cluster is that they be a relatively small diameter. This is also the case with transmission and transfer case lamps on all years. Many LEDs available will not easily fit into this cluster design because the plastic used to make the 'casing' for the LED exceeds the diameter of the hole on the cluster. Sometimes the plastic can be trimmed to work or the cluster hole can be widened, but the results will vary widely based on the precision of the work. It can also prevent an easy return to a stock configuration or the use of other LEDs in the future without additional modifications. Basically, measure the 'hole' diameter and find a light that fits.
3. Because of the size issue and durability I look for designs that are made to work in CANBUS based vehicles. CANBUS systems generate error lights when a circuit is drawing less current than is expected, such as when a lamp fails or a standard LED lamp is installed. To satisfy the CANBUS standard, LEDs makers add resistance to the LED circuit design to ensure the module draws as much current as the lamp it is replacing.
This is bad because it draws unnecessary power and because that power is almost entirely converted to heat and extra heat significantly reduces the lifespan of LEDs.
This is good because LED manufacturers must design dissipation systems to deal with the extra heat. Because of this most CANBUS LEDs are not plastic based, but rather circuit board and metal designs and are overall smaller in diameter than the plastic ones.
This is extra good because we can remove the extra resistors (or have them made without them) and end up with a lamp that draws around 15% of the power and produces only 15% of the heat that it was designed to handle. I find these modified designs last longer than unmodified CANBUS LEDs and most non-CANBUS LEDs.
A small con is that CANBUS designs typically cost more (sometimes several times more) than plastic case LEDs.
4. Gauge clusters varied in design between 84 and 96. Some clusters use as few as four lamps and others as many as ten for backlighting.
5. For high beam and turn-signals, white can be used which will retain colors close to stock. Blue or green may also be used in either place with good results. Red shines poorly due to the filter in the cluster than gives the shape of the output and color when used with stock bulbs.
6. For the cluster background white, blue, and green can be used with good results. Generally, if a cluster uses a small number of lamps it is best to stick with white, because blue or green may look dim. If the cluster uses many lamps, like the thirteen lamp '96 tach + speedo cluster I test on, green, blue, and white work very well.
7. Red doesn't work well in the high beam or turn signal locations. Red can work for cluster background lighting, but for best results high powered Red LEDs should be sourced and only used on clusters with ten backlight lamps, such as the 96 mentioned earlier.
8. Dimmer switches don't work well with LEDs. LEDs are either on or off. Once the forward bias (or "on") voltage is reached, the LED will emit. Additional voltage on top of this can produce additional light, but disproportionately produces heat. To dim an LED, the most common method is to adjust the percentage of the time that the LED is on by turning the power to it on and off several thousand times per second. It is theoretically possible to modify the Jeep's lamp circuit to do this, but I've never attempted it. I've heard of it being done but have seen no supporting evidence.
Some will argue that 'expensive' or 'well designed' LEDs will dim like stock bulbs. What the user is likely seeing as good dimming is an LED that has a forward bias voltage of say 2 volts and is simply producing more light (and heat) by being overpowered at 12 volts. There shouldn't be much change in light output when using the dimmer **** on LEDs. Most of the instrument LEDs I use turn on at between 6 and 9 volts and can operate at up to 18 volts for extended periods without failure. (Most of my interior lamps will handle up to 30 volts for short periods, which is the limit of my adjustable power supply.)
Personal note: These considerations regarding color instrument sets are one reason why I'm less excited about them as a product.
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05-14-2015, 02:07 AM
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For the loop dome lights I used one mounted normally and another tied to the two arms using copper wire. LEDs need such low power that they both light up bright. I'll take a picture tomorrow for the thread.
Also my 98 overhead console uses 4 42mm festoon bulbs
Also my 98 overhead console uses 4 42mm festoon bulbs
05-14-2015, 07:48 AM
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42mm festoons are correct for the 97+ OHC.
07-27-2015, 04:50 PM
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84-96 XJ Instrument Lights
Part 2 of 4:
Climate Control / HVAC Panel
Rocker Switches
As far as I know, all 84-96 XJs use the same climate control panel. Please correct me if this is wrong.
The climate control panel uses a single 74 type bulb to light the panel. The light is diffused through the panel through a plastic 'light' tube. The best results I've found have been by using an LED with two size 5050 LED chips, one on each side. Brighter is almost always going to be better for this panel.
As far as color is concerned, white is likely the best choice for most people. White will illuminate the blue portion of the panel and give a bit of light to the red. A red LED will light up the red portion of the panel, but doesn't do so much for the blue portion. I haven't tested green, but I anticipate it would work similar to a white LED, but be much dimmer. Some green would come through the blue portion of the panel.
Without making a new panel faceplate, I don't see any way to get a good looking green, red, or white panel in the 84-96 XJ.
Part 2 of 4:
Climate Control / HVAC Panel
Rocker Switches
As far as I know, all 84-96 XJs use the same climate control panel. Please correct me if this is wrong.
The climate control panel uses a single 74 type bulb to light the panel. The light is diffused through the panel through a plastic 'light' tube. The best results I've found have been by using an LED with two size 5050 LED chips, one on each side. Brighter is almost always going to be better for this panel.
As far as color is concerned, white is likely the best choice for most people. White will illuminate the blue portion of the panel and give a bit of light to the red. A red LED will light up the red portion of the panel, but doesn't do so much for the blue portion. I haven't tested green, but I anticipate it would work similar to a white LED, but be much dimmer. Some green would come through the blue portion of the panel.
Without making a new panel faceplate, I don't see any way to get a good looking green, red, or white panel in the 84-96 XJ.
07-28-2015, 07:57 AM
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Mine from you are still running great. Love the blue. Glad I did not go with red.
11-21-2015, 11:19 AM
#13
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84-96 XJ Instrument Lights
Part 3 of 4 and 4 of 4
Warning Lights - these use a type 74. I use the stick type with leds surface mounted one to each side and one on the end. All we really need here is the one on the end, but I stock the 3 chip version and they are very reliable, so no good reason to change them.
Transmission / Transfer Case - These use a Type 194. I use the stock type (again) with LEDs surface mounted one to each side. The sockets can be rotated so the LEDs are pointed at the sides of the light enclosures. This reduces hot spots. The only negative is that compared to other interior lights, these might come across as brighter or a different shade. The color change compared to others is because the panels are filtered.
Vanity mirrors use 29mm long festoon type LEDs. I want to come up with a better solution by using backlight panels like are used for cell phones, but it's low on my priorities, unfortunately.
I think that's everything for these lights. If I missed something, please let me know.
Part 3 of 4 and 4 of 4
Warning Lights - these use a type 74. I use the stick type with leds surface mounted one to each side and one on the end. All we really need here is the one on the end, but I stock the 3 chip version and they are very reliable, so no good reason to change them.
Transmission / Transfer Case - These use a Type 194. I use the stock type (again) with LEDs surface mounted one to each side. The sockets can be rotated so the LEDs are pointed at the sides of the light enclosures. This reduces hot spots. The only negative is that compared to other interior lights, these might come across as brighter or a different shade. The color change compared to others is because the panels are filtered.
Vanity mirrors use 29mm long festoon type LEDs. I want to come up with a better solution by using backlight panels like are used for cell phones, but it's low on my priorities, unfortunately.
I think that's everything for these lights. If I missed something, please let me know.
11-21-2015, 11:21 AM
#14
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93-98 ZJ Interior Lights
See 97-01 XJ. They use the exact same setup. Some years have glove box lamps - probably 93-95 or 96 and some don't, 97-98 due presumably to redesign to fit airbags.
See 97-01 XJ. They use the exact same setup. Some years have glove box lamps - probably 93-95 or 96 and some don't, 97-98 due presumably to redesign to fit airbags.
11-21-2015, 11:28 AM
#15
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99-04 WJ
Interior lights- I figured them out, but I'm not going to post all the details.
Highlights:
Front Overhead Dome, Front Door Panel Lamps, & Ash Tray Bulb all need a really short and small LED. This was rather difficult to find, but I did find one. It's not as bright as I'd like for the overhead lamp, but it's brighter than stock by a good bit.
Rear Overhead, Cargo, and Visor Lamps all use the same parts as the Cargo and Visor Lamps on the 97+ XJ - 42mm festoon and 29mm fuse-type, respectively.
Floor Wells - I use a flashlight style LED in the kits. They are short enough to fit in the enclose with the OEM cover retained. For max light effect, don't reinstall the cover. One difficulty with these is that because they are plastic with small contact wires, it's difficult to get them installed so they are tight with good contacts. It's a matter of getting the wire aligned a certain way. With luck, I can replace this with a different design in the future.
Glove Box - This is a fairly minor part of the kit. I supply a T10, dual sided Chip-on-Board for most cases. The only restriction is the length of the versus the space available.
Interior lights- I figured them out, but I'm not going to post all the details.
Highlights:
Front Overhead Dome, Front Door Panel Lamps, & Ash Tray Bulb all need a really short and small LED. This was rather difficult to find, but I did find one. It's not as bright as I'd like for the overhead lamp, but it's brighter than stock by a good bit.
Rear Overhead, Cargo, and Visor Lamps all use the same parts as the Cargo and Visor Lamps on the 97+ XJ - 42mm festoon and 29mm fuse-type, respectively.
Floor Wells - I use a flashlight style LED in the kits. They are short enough to fit in the enclose with the OEM cover retained. For max light effect, don't reinstall the cover. One difficulty with these is that because they are plastic with small contact wires, it's difficult to get them installed so they are tight with good contacts. It's a matter of getting the wire aligned a certain way. With luck, I can replace this with a different design in the future.
Glove Box - This is a fairly minor part of the kit. I supply a T10, dual sided Chip-on-Board for most cases. The only restriction is the length of the versus the space available.