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- Jeep Grand Cherokee ZJ 1993 to 1998 Tires General Information and Specs
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04-02-2013, 11:15 AM
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They've been around many years, and are tried and true. They work.
04-02-2013, 11:25 AM
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Year: 1989
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Not arguing but just thinking out loud. They work or they do something different that simulates them working. i.e. the wheel/tire might be balanced but end up not round. Water or tire sealer inside will sometimes ruin a tire. I'm not sure how sand/beads or water would be any different.
Anyway, I assume it works. I don't have the energy for too much brain thought this morning so I'll drop it. We can move on.
Hey, my spacers worked great!!!!
Anyway, I assume it works. I don't have the energy for too much brain thought this morning so I'll drop it. We can move on.
Hey, my spacers worked great!!!!
04-02-2013, 11:26 AM
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Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: ERH 4.0L Power Tech I-6 (HO)
(I'm teasing: really, I wanted to duplicate the one-inch-over-stock-height, upcountry original factory option, and I researched which parts would come close to that for my Sport: the result was a bit over three-quarters of an inch higher than the upcountry, and the front spacers made it an "official" 1.75 inch lift. I could not have did that without the kind assistance and patient advice of people on this forum, and particularly this thread, who were outstanding in answering my often quite ignorant noobie-type questions.)
I pieced parts together myself from various online sources, using a combo of stuff that I hoped would work out together; the result was ...they pretty much do (even my wife was impressed: plus, she's got enough confidence from the results of the project to accept a second Cherokee for our driveway lol ...and I'll be doing almost exactly the same thing, as needed, for that second Cherokee dd).
As I've already done the leg work, you don't have to lol.
Parts List:
Moog CC782 coil springs (sold by the pair)
Crown 4886186AA leaf springs (sold each, so order two)
Rubicon Express RE1333 0.75" Coil Spring Spacer (the Crown leafs on my rig - which does have the added weight of a rear factory hitch - have a little more lift than the Moogs: the spacers restore the correct front-to-rear ratio)
Energy Suspension 22109B rear polyurethane bushings **
Monroe Sensa Trac 37083 front shocks (adequate and a good value, order two)
Monroe Sensa Trac 37027 rear shocks (as above, order two)
You can google those parts numbers: there's a bunch of sellers online that supply them (they're mostly OEM or common aftermarket parts, and they're all of very good-to-high quality components).
NOTE: I didn't use the Monroes. I found a set of JK Rubicon red shocks, used with <9K on 'em, for $50 on CL. Deal! The factory JK Rubi reds are generally considered VERY stiff shocks for the 'kee, as they're valved for a vehicle about 1,000 pounds heavier ...they required some slight modding, but they saved me $70. And I don't know firm from crap lol, and I figure they'll last a lot longer: works for me.
** Polyurethane bushings are much easier to install - but: GREASE POLY's THOROUGHLY!!! - and almost everyone here recommended using rubber bushings for various reasons (OTHER than ease-of-installation, mostly due to harsh ride, and a tendency to squeak). But I'd already purchased the poly's (it was a "mistake in ordering" shipment, sigh), and decided in the middle of the leafs install to just grease the crap out of 'em and use them anyways ...because I'm lazy, and they were VERY easy to install. I may come to regret that ...but I only used 'em on the front and rear main leafs, and not the shackles (my stock shackles were in immaculate condition, even being 17 plus years old) ...and in the meanwhile, I've pressed out the OEM ones from my worn out leafs, so if it turns out I hate the poly's after awhile, I've got the stock (rubber) set.
For now, at a few hundred miles in, the poly's work for me. They're not squeaking (courtesy of slathering on a ton o' grease mixed with graphite powder lol). And my ride is so much different as a "live", actually working suspension than from the totally worn-out crap one it was, I can't tell harsh from merely firm (and I would describe the handling as "firm", whatever-in-'ell that means to anyone lol); I have no comparison to what a "nice ride" would be in a Cherokee, so I have no complaints lol.
And since this is a "low COG" (heh), under-2-inch lift, there's really none of the added problems in dealing with modified suspension geometries that the hard-core guys with way bigger tires have to address: no SYE, no TC drop, no drive-angle issues ...no major vibes and DW "surprises" ...no adverse handling. No additional expenses.
It's a maintenance schedule replacement parts project for a dd, with some minor upgrades for added height (and you probably could run milder 10's with this parts mix, without any trimming, if you were to go with the lower backspace steels wheels that are commonly recommended by people who are way more expert than me).
It's simply made a world of difference in the ride & handling, and all to the good.
If your bushings are good, you can have them pressed out of your old leafs and pressed into the new: that would be additional money savings.
, which details all the parts with links to Amazon sellers: click and buy lol. (But you can pick some of the parts up for less at other places, by googling like crazy, and using coupons: the $140 delivered for the leaf packs was from Street Side Auto with a coupon and free shipping deal ...which deal they repeat at regular intervals.)
The price I found online for parts was $140 (delivered) for the leaf packs, $70 (delivered) for the coils (Rockauto has a good price), $30 for the spacers (Amazon), $40 for the bushings (can't recall) ...and you can pick up the Sensa's for about $120 for the four (Rockauto). So, $400 plus or so - with some very careful online shopping - for almost a completely new suspension. Deal!
I have around a grand total into the 'kee maintenance upgrades at this point, including the new tires & Canyons (although I would probably put out the hundred plus more for 9.5x30R15LT tires if I did it again: I didn't know the lift was going to turn out quite that much lol ...the new-to-us 'kee, when I get it, will definitely have the larger tires). To my way of balancing options, that was a very worthwhile expenditure, woot.
04-02-2013, 12:03 PM
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Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 2.5 4 cyl.
A plastic bottle is NOT a tire. The beads are definitely going to settle at the largest diameter point in the tire. Just like water settling in the lowest point. Maybe it works but my knowledge of physics makes me very skeptical.
On a completely different note, my RE lift never settled and the front always looked like a redneck race car. I had asked here before about spacers and finally put 1/2" spacers in the front. I didn't think 1/2" would be noticed but looks great now. If I ever get it armor'ed up and it settles I'll just remove the spacers.
On a completely different note, my RE lift never settled and the front always looked like a redneck race car. I had asked here before about spacers and finally put 1/2" spacers in the front. I didn't think 1/2" would be noticed but looks great now. If I ever get it armor'ed up and it settles I'll just remove the spacers.
Not arguing but just thinking out loud. They work or they do something different that simulates them working. i.e. the wheel/tire might be balanced but end up not round. Water or tire sealer inside will sometimes ruin a tire. I'm not sure how sand/beads or water would be any different.
Anyway, I assume it works. I don't have the energy for too much brain thought this morning so I'll drop it. We can move on.
Hey, my spacers worked great!!!!
Anyway, I assume it works. I don't have the energy for too much brain thought this morning so I'll drop it. We can move on.
Hey, my spacers worked great!!!!
I ran them for 3 years and never once had an out of round or strangely wore tire. And that was on the cheapest crappy mud terrains you can buy. They worked BETTER than the weights and i'll be running them again in my next tires. For a non-aggressive street tire they're not all that necessary, but on a max traction tire they're the bee's knees. I'll be putting Airsoft BB's in my KM2's, just for the fact that i have a good many laying around and i'm cheap. (Also because they're basically the same thing).
3 years of running dynabeads and 1.5 years of running antifreeze+ dynabeads and the inside of my bald federals look fine. Only problem i had with the dynabeads with my crappy tires is the need for more weight once my tires got down to around 30% tread.. but thats from having a terrible set of tires in the first place. I'd recommend them to anyone that hasnt tried them.
04-02-2013, 12:21 PM
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Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 2.5L I4 Carbureted
I'm gonna order a set, looks like about $50 for the set. That's as much as getting them balanced anyways and if I'm throwing weights seems like a good investment to me. I'll let you know how they are.
04-02-2013, 12:23 PM
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Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 2.5 4 cyl.
$50 bucks is far too much for dynabeads. I paid $16 for all 4 tires when my local tire shop was ordering them for me. If you cant find them any cheaper than that then just use some airsoft BB's. They're basically the exact same thing.
04-02-2013, 12:31 PM
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Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 2.5L I4 Carbureted
Right on, I went to their site and the chart says I need 6oz per tire I might just measure that out in airsoft BBs then, installation is easy enough.
04-02-2013, 12:33 PM
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Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
I ran them for 3 years and never once had an out of round or strangely wore tire. And that was on the cheapest crappy mud terrains you can buy. They worked BETTER than the weights and i'll be running them again in my next tires. For a non-aggressive street tire they're not all that necessary, but on a max traction tire they're the bee's knees. I'll be putting Airsoft BB's in my KM2's, just for the fact that i have a good many laying around and i'm cheap. (Also because they're basically the same thing).
3 years of running dynabeads and 1.5 years of running antifreeze+ dynabeads and the inside of my bald federals look fine. Only problem i had with the dynabeads with my crappy tires is the need for more weight once my tires got down to around 30% tread.. but thats from having a terrible set of tires in the first place. I'd recommend them to anyone that hasnt tried them.
3 years of running dynabeads and 1.5 years of running antifreeze+ dynabeads and the inside of my bald federals look fine. Only problem i had with the dynabeads with my crappy tires is the need for more weight once my tires got down to around 30% tread.. but thats from having a terrible set of tires in the first place. I'd recommend them to anyone that hasnt tried them.
04-02-2013, 12:35 PM
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Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 2.5 4 cyl.
You can slightly hear them if you're going very slow with the engine off while doorless. Other than that, no. You can look on their site to determine how much you need, or theres a chart i'll be able to find in an hour or so if you're wanting to go the airsoft BB route.
04-02-2013, 12:42 PM
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Year: 1996
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You can slightly hear them if you're going very slow with the engine off while doorless. Other than that, no. You can look on their site to determine how much you need, or theres a chart i'll be able to find in an hour or so if you're wanting to go the airsoft BB route.
I'll look too, but if you find that BB chart you might toss it in the thread for everyone's future searching.
Thanks!
04-02-2013, 12:59 PM
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Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: ERH 4.0L Power Tech I-6 (HO)
The anecdotal "evidence" (and there's a ton of that) is pretty uniformly positive. YMMV as to "anecdotal" lol.
...did a lot of reading on this several months ago, and this is what I still recall about the "why" (given that my memory sucks lol). Hmm.
Q&E searches for some science-y type stuff:
The race car guys use the principle for "more better" in engines. Another discussion from the Camaro contingent (about size diff's).
Indian research paper at the International Journal of Advanced Engineering (to help solve earthquake building code issues): From this study, it has been observed that among all the water depth ratios for a given range of excitation frequency ratios, there exists optimum water depth that corresponds to the minimum response amplitude for each damper. (I might question balancer beads as to whether they were performing "optimally" based upon this paper lol.)
A guy fixed a stepper motor imbalance on a CNC machine ...with ideas for more search terms. Uh, click his photobucket links for the flash player videos: the difference was obvious.
Physics! Math!!!
Take a baton, it has a heavy and light end. place it on a finger. When it is balanced the light end is farther from your finger and the heavy end is closer. That demonstrates the center of Rotational balance, not the physical center of the baton. The beads will travel to the greatest distance from the Rotational balance center which will then move the center of rotational balance closer to the center of rotation. The beads acting as a fluid will continue to adjust as long as a rotational force greater than their individual mass is present. That is a simple explanation of how it works.
Someone said their memory of physics say it won't work ...after some Googling I came across the physics formula that explains why it does work:
Think about it like this:
x = \alpha \cos \frac{s}{\alpha} \ ; y=\alpha \sin\frac{s}{\alpha} \ .
Then:
x^2+y^2 = \alpha^2 \ ,
which can be recognized as a circular path around the origin with radius α. The position s = 0 corresponds to [α, 0], or 3 o'clock. To use the above formalism the derivatives are needed:
y'(s) = \cos \frac{s}{\alpha}\ ; \ x'(s) = -\sin \frac{s}{\alpha} \
y''(s) = -\frac{1}{\alpha}\sin\frac{s}{\alpha} \ ; \ x''(s) = -\frac{1}{\alpha}\cos \frac{s}{\alpha} \ .
With these results one can verify that:
x'(s)^2 + y'(s)^2 = 1 \ ; \frac{1}{\rho} = y''(s)x'(s)-y''(s)x''(s) = \frac{1}{\alpha}\ .
The unit vectors also can be found:
\mathbf{u}_t(s) = \left[-\sin\frac{s}{\alpha},\ \cos\frac{s}{\alpha} \right]\ ; \mathbf{u}_n(s) = \left[\cos\frac{s}{\alpha},\ \sin\frac{s}{\alpha} \right] \ ,
which serve to show that s = 0 is located at position [ρ, 0] and s = ρπ/2 at [0, ρ], which agrees with the original expressions for x and y. In other words, s is measured counterclockwise around the circle from 3 o'clock.
Also, the derivatives of these vectors can be found:
\frac{d}{ds}\mathbf{u}_t(s) = -\frac{1}{\alpha} \left[\cos\frac{s}{\alpha},\ \sin\frac{s}{\alpha} \right]\ = -\frac{1}{\alpha}\mathbf{u}_n(s) \ ;
\ \frac{d}{ds}\mathbf{u}_n(s) = \frac{1}{\alpha} \left[-\sin\frac{s}{\alpha},\ \cos\frac{s}{\alpha} \right] = \frac{1}{\alpha}\mathbf{u}_t(s) \ .
To obtain velocity and acceleration, a time-dependence for s is necessary. For counterclockwise motion at variable speed v(t):
s(t) = \int_0^t \ dt' \ v(t') \ ,
where v(t) is the speed and t is time, and s(t=0) = 0. Then:
\mathbf{v} = v(t)\mathbf{u}_t(s) \ ,
\mathbf{a} = \frac{dv}{dt}\mathbf{u}_t(s)+v\frac{d}{dt}\mathbf{ u}_t(s) = \frac{dv}{dt}\mathbf{u}_t(s)-v\frac{1}{\alpha}\mathbf{u}_n(s)\frac{ds}{dt}
=\frac{dv}{dt}\mathbf{u}_t(s)-\frac{v^2}{\alpha}\mathbf{u}_n(s),
where it already is established that α = ρ. This acceleration is the standard result for non-uniform circular motion.
Someone said their memory of physics say it won't work ...after some Googling I came across the physics formula that explains why it does work:
Think about it like this:
x = \alpha \cos \frac{s}{\alpha} \ ; y=\alpha \sin\frac{s}{\alpha} \ .
Then:
x^2+y^2 = \alpha^2 \ ,
which can be recognized as a circular path around the origin with radius α. The position s = 0 corresponds to [α, 0], or 3 o'clock. To use the above formalism the derivatives are needed:
y'(s) = \cos \frac{s}{\alpha}\ ; \ x'(s) = -\sin \frac{s}{\alpha} \
y''(s) = -\frac{1}{\alpha}\sin\frac{s}{\alpha} \ ; \ x''(s) = -\frac{1}{\alpha}\cos \frac{s}{\alpha} \ .
With these results one can verify that:
x'(s)^2 + y'(s)^2 = 1 \ ; \frac{1}{\rho} = y''(s)x'(s)-y''(s)x''(s) = \frac{1}{\alpha}\ .
The unit vectors also can be found:
\mathbf{u}_t(s) = \left[-\sin\frac{s}{\alpha},\ \cos\frac{s}{\alpha} \right]\ ; \mathbf{u}_n(s) = \left[\cos\frac{s}{\alpha},\ \sin\frac{s}{\alpha} \right] \ ,
which serve to show that s = 0 is located at position [ρ, 0] and s = ρπ/2 at [0, ρ], which agrees with the original expressions for x and y. In other words, s is measured counterclockwise around the circle from 3 o'clock.
Also, the derivatives of these vectors can be found:
\frac{d}{ds}\mathbf{u}_t(s) = -\frac{1}{\alpha} \left[\cos\frac{s}{\alpha},\ \sin\frac{s}{\alpha} \right]\ = -\frac{1}{\alpha}\mathbf{u}_n(s) \ ;
\ \frac{d}{ds}\mathbf{u}_n(s) = \frac{1}{\alpha} \left[-\sin\frac{s}{\alpha},\ \cos\frac{s}{\alpha} \right] = \frac{1}{\alpha}\mathbf{u}_t(s) \ .
To obtain velocity and acceleration, a time-dependence for s is necessary. For counterclockwise motion at variable speed v(t):
s(t) = \int_0^t \ dt' \ v(t') \ ,
where v(t) is the speed and t is time, and s(t=0) = 0. Then:
\mathbf{v} = v(t)\mathbf{u}_t(s) \ ,
\mathbf{a} = \frac{dv}{dt}\mathbf{u}_t(s)+v\frac{d}{dt}\mathbf{ u}_t(s) = \frac{dv}{dt}\mathbf{u}_t(s)-v\frac{1}{\alpha}\mathbf{u}_n(s)\frac{ds}{dt}
=\frac{dv}{dt}\mathbf{u}_t(s)-\frac{v^2}{\alpha}\mathbf{u}_n(s),
where it already is established that α = ρ. This acceleration is the standard result for non-uniform circular motion.
...and ...
Science: is there nothing it can't do? LOL.
DISCLAIMER: I am merely good at cutting & pasting. Derivatives - at this advanced stage of age-based mental degradation, are beyond my tepid math skills. Woot.
04-02-2013, 01:08 PM
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Year: 1995
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Engine: 2.5 4 cyl.
For the physics perspective, think gyroscope-like ...the beads settle while at rest, but don't stay there; they work on the same principle as fluid harmonic dampers. Once in motion, they redistribute and tend to stabilize the tire. Granted, you have to get to a certain moderate speed before they do their thing.
The anecdotal "evidence" (and there's a ton of that) is pretty uniformly positive. YMMV as to "anecdotal" lol.
...did a lot of reading on this several months ago, and this is what I still recall about the "why" (given that my memory sucks lol). Hmm.
Q&E searches for some science-y type stuff:
The race car guys use the principle for "more better" in engines. Another discussion from the Camaro contingent (about size diff's).
Indian research paper at the International Journal of Advanced Engineering (to help solve earthquake building code issues): From this study, it has been observed that among all the water depth ratios for a given range of excitation frequency ratios, there exists optimum water depth that corresponds to the minimum response amplitude for each damper. (I might question balancer beads as to whether they were performing "optimally" based upon this paper lol.)
Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq263AYgyYg using that water bottle demo.
A guy fixed a stepper motor imbalance on a CNC machine ...with ideas for more search terms. Uh, click his photobucket links for the flash player videos: the difference was obvious.
Physics! Math!!!
So there!
...and ...
Science: is there nothing it can't do? LOL.
DISCLAIMER: I am merely good at cutting & pasting. Derivatives - at this advanced stage of age-based mental degradation, are beyond my tepid math skills. Woot.
The anecdotal "evidence" (and there's a ton of that) is pretty uniformly positive. YMMV as to "anecdotal" lol.
...did a lot of reading on this several months ago, and this is what I still recall about the "why" (given that my memory sucks lol). Hmm.
Q&E searches for some science-y type stuff:
The race car guys use the principle for "more better" in engines. Another discussion from the Camaro contingent (about size diff's).
Indian research paper at the International Journal of Advanced Engineering (to help solve earthquake building code issues): From this study, it has been observed that among all the water depth ratios for a given range of excitation frequency ratios, there exists optimum water depth that corresponds to the minimum response amplitude for each damper. (I might question balancer beads as to whether they were performing "optimally" based upon this paper lol.)
Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq263AYgyYg using that water bottle demo.
A guy fixed a stepper motor imbalance on a CNC machine ...with ideas for more search terms. Uh, click his photobucket links for the flash player videos: the difference was obvious.
Physics! Math!!!
So there!
...and ...
Science: is there nothing it can't do? LOL.
DISCLAIMER: I am merely good at cutting & pasting. Derivatives - at this advanced stage of age-based mental degradation, are beyond my tepid math skills. Woot.
Last edited by xj_maniac_newb; 04-02-2013 at 01:44 PM.
04-02-2013, 01:43 PM
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Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Yeah, I was kidding about the noise being a problem.