Modified XJ Cherokee Tech XJ (84-01)
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Alignement after lift?

Old Dec 11, 2014 | 11:19 PM
  #16  
macgyver35's Avatar
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I appreciate all the advice. To clear up something...

I'm not asking about the "HOW" of doing an alignment. I understand how that all works. What I was asking about is if there were any references to the specs (the actual measurement targets) that should be used for XJs with various lifts. As I said before, I've seen a number of references to the measurements needing to be set differently from stock, but never a mention of what those measurements should be.

Further, as I mentioned in my original post, I purchased a "lifetime alignment" from Firestone when I bought my last set of tires. That means I can get up to four alignments per year and not pay a dime. As such I want them to do the alignments, and have it on their records that they did them on a regular basis, because if my tires wear funny I don't want to hear them giving me crap because I did my own alignments and using that as an excuse to not stand behind the tread-life warranty.

This isn't a question of not knowing how an alignment is done or trying to save the cost of an alignment. This is about having it done with the proper specs for a 4.5" lift, and making sure Firestone will prorate my tires if they wear badly. All that can really be adjusted, even with that lift on there is caster and toe. I'd have to use offset ball-joints to affect camber. Oddly, I think camber is going to have the greatest impact on tire wear, assuming toe gets set correctly. This is the second Jeep I've had the seems to wear the outside of the tread pretty quickly, but the ball joints seem to be in great shape.
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Old Dec 12, 2014 | 06:59 AM
  #17  
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^ In that case,
5 degrees of caster is a minimum for most any lift.
Pinion angle takes priority over caster.
At 4.5" lift you should be able to get the required minimum of 5 degrees of caster with a High-Pinion D30. 6.5 would be ideal if pinion allows it. After turning a corner, the wheels should straighten on their own, this is caster working.
Toe is set last,
231 Transfer Case = 1/16" - 1/8" maximum toe-in
242 TC = 0" toe-in

Thrust angle, wheelbase, and scrub radius are for another discussion.
Did my own alignment, including wheelbase, over 3 years ago. Tire wear is not noticable, drives good. 4.5" lift, caster at 5.5 degrees.

Last edited by SteveMongr; Dec 12, 2014 at 07:03 AM.
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Old Dec 12, 2014 | 12:45 PM
  #18  
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Year: 1999
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Originally Posted by klump
I have aligned 100's of vehicles, lifted and not, and I can tell you toe setting is most important to tire wear and your toe can be too far positive or negative and it wont nec pull as long as it is even side to side. I would HIGHLY suggest taking it for a REAL alignment on an up-to-date machine. if shops give you a hassle for it being lifted and blah blah blah just say you want a toe set, a suspension lift wont effect that. itd take me 20 min from start to finish to get a toe-in, not "hours of work". id be extremely leery of this guy. he may have exp, but these machines can tell degress on a veh's spec to a tenth of a degree in real time, much more accurate than a tape measure.
Well mines been perfect zero tire wear/pull so far what else can I say, all the shops complained about all the adjustment points on the front end.
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Old Dec 14, 2014 | 03:15 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Fred/N0AZZ

Well mines been perfect zero tire wear/pull so far what else can I say, all the shops complained about all the adjustment points on the front end.
Same, my XJ was done at home with a level, carpenter square and a tape measure... No abnormal Tire wear, no odd handling, and most importantly... No death Wobble.

While lifting I did an alignment once or twice a week as I tweaked the suspension and steering. Given it's a 5.5" 3 link long arm with WJ knuckles, custom links and linkage... Most alignment shops laughed, so I got good at it.
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Old Dec 15, 2014 | 06:44 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Rockfrog
Same, my XJ was done at home with a level, carpenter square and a tape measure... No abnormal Tire wear, no odd handling, and most importantly... No death Wobble.

While lifting I did an alignment once or twice a week as I tweaked the suspension and steering. Given it's a 5.5" 3 link long arm with WJ knuckles, custom links and linkage... Most alignment shops laughed, so I got good at it.
The same as they do with any race car also from dirt track to drag race the shops don't know S**T when it comes to doing one because of all the mods. If it isn't a stock model with everything listed they are lost.

Wonder how they did alignments before all the machines came into play with all the settings and the cost. All I use them for are my DD's.
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Old Dec 15, 2014 | 10:24 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by SteveMongr
^ In that case,
5 degrees of caster is a minimum for most any lift.
Pinion angle takes priority over caster.
At 4.5" lift you should be able to get the required minimum of 5 degrees of caster with a High-Pinion D30. 6.5 would be ideal if pinion allows it. After turning a corner, the wheels should straighten on their own, this is caster working.
Toe is set last,
231 Transfer Case = 1/16" - 1/8" maximum toe-in
242 TC = 0" toe-in

Thrust angle, wheelbase, and scrub radius are for another discussion.
Did my own alignment, including wheelbase, over 3 years ago. Tire wear is not noticable, drives good. 4.5" lift, caster at 5.5 degrees.
I agree with everything here. You want enough caster to promote steering wheel return and to keep the steering system loaded while driving to prevent death wobble. If you dont run enough positive caster you will not get the steering wheel return you need. But you also want to run what you need to get that plus prevent any death wobble and no more. Too little positive caster allows the steering system too much free play that when jarred by a bump or too much play in the system due to wear allows the steering to vibrate around zero caster back and forth between positive and negative until you slow way down and let it settle down. That can be a very significant emotional event if you have never experienced it before. Too much positive caster can cause premature steering system problems by placing extreme forces on the system. So you have to find that point in the angles that do what you need but no more. And around +6* is usually right.

Also, you want the dog track to be aligned as well. Thats where the tech will adjust the trac bar so that the front axle runs straight with the rear axle and doesnt stick out on either side. You know the vehicles that run down the road with four tire marks....you don't want that.

Last, the toe for a lifted vehicle with over size tires should be set to the middle or inner spec of the "factory specs". Always stay inthem unless you are building a race car.... The extra tire size causes more friction that pulls the tires open at higher speed. So when they toe in a bit....as you speed up they open slightly unbinding the steering system. This is compounded by the front end squating under wind resistance that also pushes the steering geometry to open the wheels up a bit. S
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Old Dec 18, 2014 | 04:42 PM
  #22  
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what you need is a plumb bob, some duct tape, a pack of chewing gum, a matchbook, a big hammer, and a pitchfork.. gather all that up..
then go to a shop that knows how to align one
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Old Dec 19, 2014 | 07:54 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by prdgyair
what you need is a plumb bob, some duct tape, a pack of chewing gum, a matchbook, a big hammer, and a pitchfork.. gather all that up..
then go to a shop that knows how to align one
Lol
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Old Dec 19, 2014 | 02:03 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by prdgyair
what you need is a plumb bob, some duct tape, a pack of chewing gum, a matchbook, a big hammer, and a pitchfork.. gather all that up..
then go to a shop that knows how to align one
And all of that sound quite fitting, given my screen name.
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Old Dec 19, 2014 | 02:10 PM
  #25  
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I measured thrust angle by using a plumb bob off axle tubes, and duct tape on the garage floor to make a mark on.
Compared this to wheelbase measurement at hub centers.
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Old Dec 20, 2014 | 12:40 PM
  #26  
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Did you end up getting all of that done in the one weekend?
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Old Dec 20, 2014 | 12:51 PM
  #27  
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deleted.

Last edited by SteveMongr; Dec 20, 2014 at 03:19 PM.
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Old Dec 22, 2014 | 11:30 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by t_long
Did you end up getting all of that done in the one weekend?
Actually... No.

I ended up with the flu during Thanksgiving weekend, so it didn't happen then.

The following weekend, I managed to get nearly the entire front suspension removed in just two hours, and I was down to the two 15mm nuts that hold on the upper control arms on the frame end. They would not budge. I tried PB Blaster (even though the passenger side one has had a pretty good coat of engine oil/crud on it for months). I tried heating them up. I tried a variety of sockets, wrenches, etc. The only thing I succeeded in doing was rounding off the nuts. So I went and bought a couple more "stripped nut" tools. They just stripped them out further. So... I'm going to have to cut them off. But I did not have any bolts/nuts to replace the cut ones on me at the time. So I had to put the whole damn thing back together like it was before I ever started. Had it not been for those nuts, and the four hours I wasted on them, I would have gotten it all done in a weekend.
As it stands now, we're close to Christmas and New Years holidays, my wife has been sick for over three weeks and now the doc suspects she might have pneumonia, I typically have a crap ton of work to do at the end of the year, and I just don't have time to get to it right now. With everything else the XJ is now on back-burner status.
Hopefully some time after the first of the year...
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Old Dec 25, 2014 | 11:18 AM
  #29  
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I feel like that happens to most of us when the XJ suspension is coming apart for the first time. For me, it was the nut that is pressed in on the passenger side where my sway bar disconnects go. It took the better part of a day to get that thing out on my rig.

Then there are the rear shock bolts... Once you do get around to it again, be prepared with an air hammer because those break often. Mine did and it was a royal PITA because we drilled and tapped them the first time.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your wife. Looking forward to hearing more your build. Merry Christmas!
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