DFlintstone

If it were me...If it's regulating around (13.8 < 14.8), I might run it till it has a problem, then change it back. I wouldn't trust that (voltage reading from the dash gauge, it's what you see right at the battery that really matters.

Fyi, The renix regulator is in the Alt, then starting in 91, HO's regulators are in their PCM. It ain't rocket science. The spinning rotor is just an electromagnet who's field incites (AC) current in the stator surrounding it. Stronger field = higher voltage. This AC meets six diodes, three positive and three negative which "rectify" that AC into DC for your system. Not sure in this, but 3.5 to 4.5 are in the ballpark of the voltage that you might expect being supplied to the rotor to maintain correct system voltage. (for my (same) Delco hydro generator in my creek, a steady 4.9 is what works. Once in an emergency I ran the power from my (dimable) dash lights to the field terminal on an old Chevy. Low was a little high so I turned on the headlights.

XJRed96

this is intriguing... need some more background to erase my ignorance on the matter.

Firstly The hydro generator you speak of. are you using slang terms for car parts and makes or are you genuinely talking about a creek powered hydro generator. In which case if you are, w4.9vAC doesn't sound like a lot to power anything you would need a generator for and or how do you step this up to usable 120 or 220v ORRRR does this 5v AC get rectified into 14-15v DC? then from that my questioning would lead to.... what do you run on DC that you would want such a weak hydro-generator for?unless of course you are using a DC-AC converter of sorts, in which case i might ask how many amps can you pull...

secondly... you talk about in an emergency you "hotwired" the field wire to your dimmer switch. What was the immediate problem that required this repair, and secondly to better help me understand how were you able to rectify (huh good play on words there) the immediate problem you were having, what was this repair able to accomplish

Lastly in the 12v world, if it has 6 poles and half are positive and half are negative is it safe to assume that the AC current that it is producing can produce roughly 3times that voltage in DC? (more specifically i'm asking this because i'm about to replace the stator and trigger on my old 1982 mercury 50hp 2 stroke outboard. deteriorated wiring harness off both and poor running after it sat through a bad rainstorm. i found the two leads going to the rectifier, to provide a charging voltage to the battery and accesories, to be shorting out to one another, i just need a better understanding on how the system works so that i can be prepared for future diagnosis... to be honest i think i need a coil box, but again given the condition and age of the components i dont mind spending the money to throw parts at it... )

DFlintstone

OK, guess I'll go at it in order.

The 80 feet of drop I have in my little seasonal creek would have the potential to make allot more power then I get. First except for dead winter (when its rainy), the 10's of thousands of gallons a day I can take is limited. Longer story shorter, I'm limited to nozzles down to .2", (Fall and Spring), and run up to .33 (now). Another factor is pipe size. If I had 1,000 feet of 6" pipe right to the nozzle I wouldn't have friction loss (with small nozzles),and the (static) pressure, (80' X .43333 Lbs/foot), would remain 34,66 lbs when I turn on the water. In my case, due to friction loss my dynamic pressure is in the high 20's, depending on which nozzle. My minimal cross section area of my line is 1.57 sq in. That's a section with two 1" lines, corresponds to a pipe 1.41 inches diameter...BUT that has more friction then a 1.4 inch pipe because of there's more area in two one inch pipes than one 1.4 in pipe. Some sections have larger pipe, also there is a long section of 1-1/2" So...spendy deal, 1,100 feet of pipe. And no, smaller pipe does not make higher pressure. (some seasoned plumbers don't even get this) One foot gives you .433 Lbs, 10 is 4.3, and 100 is 43. Nothing is going to make that (static) pressure higher. Going small, (like the little shutoff valves under your sink), simply lets the system keep the pressure it had. A nozzle tapers the way it does to create a "laminar flow", smoothing the flow, and cutting turbulence for a better "jet" of water. If you had a mongo valve, say for the yard or something, if someone opens that while you were in the shower, you wouldn't be happy! (pressure would crash) The reason I said "static" above is because if water is flowing and you slam a valve shut, it's inertia will cause a pressure spike, water hammer it's called. This is what makes a ram pump work, and why a fireman will close the last bit of a big valve slowly. If he doesn't, pipes blocks away might burst, jump. (Espresso instead of Beer tonight, just warming up!)

So say a .25 nozzle, (1/4") at 28lbs is what I have. A fun thing, figuring nozzle velocity. The water is nothing but a (long) cylinder of known volume. (you know the volume because you timed how long it took to fill a 5 gallon bucket.) so 5 Gals X 7.8 Gals/cu foot= 1.56 cu/ft. Sooo..Pie, (3.14) X radius squared, (that's 1/2 the diameter, times itself), gives the area of a circle. Now, (just as for a cube), if you multiply the area times the height you get the volume of a cylinder. Shorter story, we know 1.56 cu/ft came out, so with a little figuring using the area of a cylinder equation the till now unknown, height of the cylinder is spit out through the magic of algebra. I'm making up numbers here. Say the cylinder is 2,000 feet long, and it took one minute to fill the bucket. The nozzle velocity is 2,000 feet a minute, or 33.3 feet/second. (Some of those example #'s are not accurate, it's the concept I'm explaining. I think my jet is closer to double that at 28lbs and the .25 nozzle.

So now the receiving end. I guess a guy named Pelton invented the Pelton wheel, not so long ago, (1800's?) The wheel catches the kinetic energy of the water and converts it to mechanical energy. The split cup Pelton design doesn't let splash water take energy away by being in the way for the next cup. Now a whole dance happens here. Your generator prefers a certain RPM range. Ideally you want your Pelton impeller receding from the jet at 1/2 the speed of the jet. Done right, all of the kinetic energy is taken from the water and it falls straight towards the center of the earth. So you know your nozzle velocity, and what RPM, so you size the Pelton wheel for optimum efficiency. (in a perfect world anyway.) I'm using a 5" wheel, screams like a siren with no load, (voltage to the field). Gearing is a bit impractical. You loose energy right off, also anything running 24/7 for 6 months better be up for some wear. (I might try bike sprockets sometime just to see) Messing with this for about 35 years I've seen some unexpected stuff!

The highest I've achieved (w/1/4" nozzle), is 65 watts. (that's twice what my 32" TV uses, or enough to run about 6, 60W equivalent LED bulbs.) My batteries have a real, actual capacity of over 200 amp Hrs. Normally I use a 600W true sign wave inverter to make the 110V AC from the 12V, for the house. I have a big one 1,500W I think, or 2,500, I forget. Anyway of course the big guy can really hammer the batteries, so normally it's for short tasks. (blow drier, microwave, vacuum, some tools, drill press scroll saw and the like). I do have a 4000W remote start Onan for the shop tools, joiner, band-saw, table saw ect. Also I have a little 1,200 watt jenni for when it's not sunny and the creek isn't flowing. It's sized to just run the battery charger pushen 20 amps.

That 65 Watts I got from a permanent magnet motor out of a Swedish vacuum cleaner. Booger is motors generate their power in the spinning armature, and it needs to come through the commutator and brushes. The brushes wear out, and it's like going down and back up an 8 story building to change them, (Plus I bring the unit to the shop, of course need to take it back and set it up again.)

Segway to the delco alternator. Cheap, robust, the slip rings to provide a scant maybe 1-1/2 amps to the spinning rotor. That's where I mentioned the 4.9 volts earlier. Because it runs at a steady speed I don't need a regulator like a car does with varying loads and RPM's. Fun feature of that setup. It turns out if you feed a 12v, 15W incandescent bulb 12-13.5 volts, its ground side is about the 4.9V I need. So...another 300 feet of I think it's 10 or 12 gauge wire to the hydro, and wallah! An albeit dim, 24 hr night light for the bathroom is my "voltage regulator". If it's blinking the brushes have worn or are not making good contact. If it goes out, I have an open circuit. If I'm away and a bear or elk breaks my water line, (again), or the water runs out, in time that will hammer even a big battery bank. You see a problem here? This setup with the diodes in the rectifier and whatever else yields around 4 amps, (49W), and 1.5 amps of that is going to the nightlight and the field.

Now enter the permanent magnet rotor for the delco. No brushes or slip rings, just the neodymium magnets sweeping a field past the rotor. (these are made and marketed mostly for wind turbines) After years of rotor envy finally the price came down. Bought one for $65, then another for $50 I still have here....this one might have a more suitable field. The first one has been cranking away for me at nearly 4 amps since I think October, without a hitch. Oh, on the big .33 nozzle. There is plenty of room for improvement here. If I move the rectifier to the house, transmitting AC I would have less "copper losses". Now I have two 300' chunks of 6G copper running down there. If I add a third, (oh the stator has three outputs to those 6 diodes), A third, I'd like to match the other two. (price 6G stranded copper and you will see my issue) I think there are three just to make it less choppy, just a practical middle ground, better than two, and cheaper then 6. (suppose you could factor in voltage loss with all those added diodes also). IIRC around 8 amps is what I might see with a perfect setup. (@80', 1/4"nozzle) Don't bother to nerd out on that, the accurate figure is in my notes somewhere. I loose through diodes. I loose with pipe friction. I have copper losses running DC 300". The setup of the rotor magnets and the wheel speed are in the ballpark, but not ideal. But hey, I can pass out with the TV on and wake up with higher voltage in my batteries, and I haven't needed to touch a thing since last fall. I'm fat (er), and happy! It is a very pleasant 8 story hike, but the thing hasn't normally waited for good weather to fail.

You use an inverter to turn the 12V into 110 AC. Sky is the limit on options there. Modified sign wave is the norm and affordable, but some motors hum and don't run quite right. Other electronics might not like it, like a phone or computer charger might take longer. I had nothing but that for 30 years and got by OK. True sign wave, much more spendy, actually I don't notice much of a difference. I use a bread machine just to kneed the dough, guess it's motor is happier. You can get a little 75 Watt inverter, has a 110 plug right on a cigarette lighter plug, or you can get 12, 24 48 Volt inverters big enough to run about anything. Then there are "stackable" inverters so you can add capacity. Also there are, "grid tie" inverters. These match the 60 cycle AC to your power grid, (if you have one). Now you don't need batteries. You will always have grid power, but when you have extra power it goes to the grid, then you can have it back on a rainy day. They call the setup "zero sum" or something like that. It zeros out every year. The goal is to size your solar or whatever system you have so at the end of the year you used exactly what you made. You make too much, too bad, they take it. You make too little, you buy that difference you need. They will never pay you for providing power, but they do have their side of the issue. What if everyone got solar panels and hit's zero. Where does the money come from to maintain the system? Or 1/2 hit Zero and the other 1/2 bear the cost?

EDIT: I want to add something important...Diversion charge controllers are affordable now. Solar or wind generators will drive your voltage past 15. Not allowd. Affordable solar charge controllers just go open circuit, (often adjustable), so open at say 14.5V, then the voltage on the solar side soars, in the 20's is normal. Fine solar panels don't mind that, but you are not getting potential power. Also with wind or hydro you generally don't want to go open circuit. My tiny hydro will go to the 60"s, and I think the problem with windmills it they over rev. (not sure). So enter the "shunt" or diversion controller. It triggers your relay, to run the power elsewhere than your battery bank. Put a 12V heating element in your water heater do it doesn't need to trip it's thermostat as often. Run it to your three way frig and save propane. Lights or a fan. I bought one, ($15), intending to send my extra to my neighbor (500 feet through thick forest),who has trees shading his panels, (still). AND! Why just one? Divert to a second battery bank, then when that's full divert from there to the heating element in the hot tub or something, with a second one. Just be sure you have the capacity to handle the diverted power. I don't care to think about what happens if the works gets over full.


The dimmer/hot-wire. Back in the old days we had separate voltage regulators. Mid-evel things that used a coil-electromagnet, a spring, and actual metal points to raise or lower the voltage to the field to maintain system voltage. (tad more complicated, but that's the general idea) Btw everything in a Generator is backwards. The field is grounded by the regulator, better, (less resistance to ground), for more voltage, and more resistance to ground for less voltage. The field here is the outer, and the spinning armature generates the DC, no rectifier needed. Power needing to go through the commutator and brushes, and lower voltage at low rpms, I think is why the alternator won out. Fyi....they depend on residual magnetism in the armature to kick start the generating process. Sometimes you needed to "flash?" them I forget the term. Anyway, alternators had a field terminal (with an actual "f" and everything). I've even used Bosch or nipindenso regulators in places where they were not intended. So I forget if I just couldn't afford a regulator, or if I was in some other jamb. I needed voltage to my field and 12 is way to much. Another time frying, my voltage skyrocketed for some reason. Headlights (all the bulbs IIRC), went out with a blinding blue flash, then darkness. Darkness except what just got burned into my retinas! What a trip. So anyway, yea, the power from the dash light circuit on low worked OK. After a bit though the voltage would start to climb. Over 15 volts your battery is gonna boil, But IIRC with the headlights and heater blower I got through it. (might have been there I installed a Toyota regulator or something, Idk

The ac from the stator is about system voltage. Let's say 14.25, in the (three in this case) wires from the stator each meet two diodes, a positive and a negative. (electrical and plumbing have allot in common. A diode is a check valve, only lets current through one way. Voltage is Kin to pressure. Amperage is kin to the flow rate, the size of the pipe. Watts are what actually got, is being done, a measure of work, convertible to horsepower. The amount of water in the bucket a some pressure with some size pipe is determined by the push and the resistance.

So when a positive pulse comes, the negative diode blocks it, and a positive diode passes it through to the "hot" output terminal on the alt. When a negative pulse comes along, the positive diode blocks it and the negative passes it through to ground. (Btw, I've personally seen a well bolted in alternator not make contact with ground. a head scratcher figuring that one out!) So the three outputs working in symphony with the six diodes provide a smooth enough DC output.

I'm less familiar with magnetos and bike and outboard systems. If you have two leads to your rectifier, see if there are four diodes. These cridders may not need power that is as smooth as a (luxury) car, (w/radio), so just the two? Maybe meter the lead (AC 200V scale). Also with just common sense you can test diodes. Juice one side and see if the other will light (any) light. Like a test or dome light. Coils can be tested. Capacitors are tricksters, and can be tested.

I'm pooped out! So there's that. You might check smokestack.com, or find a forum for outboards...good luck!

Writing this got me thinking I should look at what's available in "Zener" type diodes. They loose less, also doing the math on it makes me want to improve a choke in my hydro power line. I think it's only about 200' of the 1,100 being the restriction now. Thanks!

XJRed96

think i might have to read that a couple more times... first time through has hurt my head. lol, a lot of info to take in. But good information thats almost relatable to the OPs original post... Sorry for hijacking the thread. but thanks for the information.

DFlintstone

Hey Red. I did a little editing, maybe a little easier on the head now. His questions were right up my alley, mostly. Then two large cups of fresh ground Kona Blend you could stand a spoon in sort of took over...it seems!

nujeepguy

!ill save this wall of words for later study!!!
always fun...

DFlintstone

Hey! Real complement coming from you. I'm still editing on my breaks though, your copy is out of date!