Replaced U Joints are Tight - Rear DS (Spicer 5-1310x)
07-16-2018, 07:19 AM
#16
CF Veteran
if they're just snug, you're fine. even if you need to use your palm and finger with some effort. but if it's tight where you are hitting with a hammer to move it full motion, then a whack with a hammer on the ears should suffice.
i've done lots of u-joints, some were snug, some moved freely. but the ones that took some grunting, i took apart to see why. i've even had to spread the ears with no joint installed just to get the new one in and get the clips on, then whack it with a punch and hammer till i feel it was good enough to put in the jeep.
some stiffness is fine, as long as i can get it to move full motion, the force of the jeep driving will free it up easier than i can. i've never had a yoke break or shear off.
but if you can't get a clip back on, or it's way too tight, then you most likely dropped a needle bearing inside the cap. so before you squeeze it too hard, pull it apart. cause if you bend or break a needle bearing, you are likely gonna have to buy another u-joint, either just for that cap, which i have done more than once, and not have to pull the whole joint back out.
you might get away with using a needle bearing from the old joint, as long as they were the same ones because others use different size needle bearings and they won't work.
i've done lots of u-joints, some were snug, some moved freely. but the ones that took some grunting, i took apart to see why. i've even had to spread the ears with no joint installed just to get the new one in and get the clips on, then whack it with a punch and hammer till i feel it was good enough to put in the jeep.
some stiffness is fine, as long as i can get it to move full motion, the force of the jeep driving will free it up easier than i can. i've never had a yoke break or shear off.
but if you can't get a clip back on, or it's way too tight, then you most likely dropped a needle bearing inside the cap. so before you squeeze it too hard, pull it apart. cause if you bend or break a needle bearing, you are likely gonna have to buy another u-joint, either just for that cap, which i have done more than once, and not have to pull the whole joint back out.
you might get away with using a needle bearing from the old joint, as long as they were the same ones because others use different size needle bearings and they won't work.
07-16-2018, 10:26 AM
#17
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So for a couple days I had to drive to and from work (5 miles) in 4 high front wheel drive. Aside from the fact that I didn't really want to do that anymore than I had to, it was interesting to notice that the vibration and grinding sounds were gone with the rear driveshaft removed.
So today I got to work with it again. I watched a video and saw sort of a different way to hit the ears and I tried it and things got a little more loose and smooth. I felt pretty confident that I had gotten the u joint where it needed to be and so I installed it. I then drove it about 3 miles around the block a couple times and everything seemed to be great. Some of the vibration returned, but the grinding that was happening whenever I let off the gas at speed was gone. I got everything packed up and cleaned up my workspace and got in the Jeep to go for a drive. Less than a mile into it, the grinding was back. It's as though almost nothing changed from changing the u joints.
I still feel like they are the problem though, because when the driveshaft wasn't installed, everything was fine and quiet. So I'm left wondering at the moment, is it the U joints still and I messed them up while getting them installed because the process took a difficult turn? Is it possible that it's a pinion yoke or transfer case issue? It the driveshaft just too old and rusty and tired of doing its job?
When I removed and replaced the rear u joint, one of the white plastic pieces on the bottom of one of the caps got bent a bit and came off. I was able to snap it back on, but I did think that perhaps it is there to keep the grease in the cap. Is it possible this damage caused all of the grease to come out after a few miles and I just have a wrecked u joint again? It was pouring rain by the time I got anywhere, so I haven't had a chance to get under it and look at it. I'll do some noggin' poking tomorrow, but if anyone has any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.
Thanks for everything so far!
So today I got to work with it again. I watched a video and saw sort of a different way to hit the ears and I tried it and things got a little more loose and smooth. I felt pretty confident that I had gotten the u joint where it needed to be and so I installed it. I then drove it about 3 miles around the block a couple times and everything seemed to be great. Some of the vibration returned, but the grinding that was happening whenever I let off the gas at speed was gone. I got everything packed up and cleaned up my workspace and got in the Jeep to go for a drive. Less than a mile into it, the grinding was back. It's as though almost nothing changed from changing the u joints.
I still feel like they are the problem though, because when the driveshaft wasn't installed, everything was fine and quiet. So I'm left wondering at the moment, is it the U joints still and I messed them up while getting them installed because the process took a difficult turn? Is it possible that it's a pinion yoke or transfer case issue? It the driveshaft just too old and rusty and tired of doing its job?
When I removed and replaced the rear u joint, one of the white plastic pieces on the bottom of one of the caps got bent a bit and came off. I was able to snap it back on, but I did think that perhaps it is there to keep the grease in the cap. Is it possible this damage caused all of the grease to come out after a few miles and I just have a wrecked u joint again? It was pouring rain by the time I got anywhere, so I haven't had a chance to get under it and look at it. I'll do some noggin' poking tomorrow, but if anyone has any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.
Thanks for everything so far!
In my case, I discovered the bad u-joint in my driveshaft as part of routine checking of components. The joint had a good amount of play in it and had lost some of the needle bearings and it didn't "feel" off - it wasn't noticeable with the bad shocks and saggy springs. So even with it being in pretty bad shape, there was no grinding or even much of a vibration.
Unfortunately in your case, if it's making the exact same grinding sound even with the new joints (even if they're also bad due to that plastic piece) I would suspect it's either pinion or transfer case.
Edit - The noise does not have to be in the driveshaft itself to show up only when the driveshaft is installed. When the driveshaft is installed there is much more force on the transfer case output shaft and rear axle pinion, so they would make noise with the pressure, but not without it.
A tiny bit of "off weight" is not going to be super noticeable on the driveshaft. In other words, driveshaft rust and old age are almost certainly NOT your problem here.
I'd check for play in the output shaft of the transfer case and at the pinion - you may want to use a mechanics stethoscope to try to pinpoint where the problem is.
Last edited by PatHenry; 07-16-2018 at 10:35 AM.
07-16-2018, 11:23 AM
#18
Old fart with a wrench
Have you checked the driveshaft for being straight? You could have bent it on a rock or something. I did just that with my Chevy truck. Just enough to cause a vibration.
08-13-2018, 10:17 PM
#19
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Well i too have a couple new issues,
1) a slight vibration from my front end at low speeds 10-30mph. new stabilizer link last week. front end was fine with no vibration before the suspension upgrade. now its a slight but noticeable vibration at lower speeds and seems to dissappear at higher speeds, >45 or so. not sure what to look for. I had an alignment right after the suspension upgrade.
2) at higher speeds (60 or so) there is def a noticeable grinding like sound when i touch or left off the peddle. sounds like its a u-joint on my rear drive shaft. no play in the shaft, its tight.
OP, did you get your problem solved? what did you end up doing? Im curious to know, i'm also trying to keep my xj relatively stock, well with an upcountry suspension upgrade. This is my dd so id like it to go forever if I can help it.
08-14-2018, 05:57 AM
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I've heard people say this, that u-bolts need to be torqued under the weight of the vehicle, NOT while in the air or on jacks. why is this? like the op I also had crown HD leafs installed on my otherwise stock xj. New gabriel air shocks back there too (i tow a popup & now realize air shocks were prob overkill with HD leafs). moog coils and spacers up front with new shocks up there too. upcountry suspension. anyway I had a local mechanic do the work. Id like to think he knew to torque it all under the weight of the vehicle but i dont know for sure.
Well i too have a couple new issues,
1) a slight vibration from my front end at low speeds 10-30mph. new stabilizer link last week. front end was fine with no vibration before the suspension upgrade. now its a slight but noticeable vibration at lower speeds and seems to dissappear at higher speeds, >45 or so. not sure what to look for. I had an alignment right after the suspension upgrade.
2) at higher speeds (60 or so) there is def a noticeable grinding like sound when i touch or left off the peddle. sounds like its a u-joint on my rear drive shaft. no play in the shaft, its tight.
OP, did you get your problem solved? what did you end up doing? Im curious to know, i'm also trying to keep my xj relatively stock, well with an upcountry suspension upgrade. This is my dd so id like it to go forever if I can help it.
Well i too have a couple new issues,
1) a slight vibration from my front end at low speeds 10-30mph. new stabilizer link last week. front end was fine with no vibration before the suspension upgrade. now its a slight but noticeable vibration at lower speeds and seems to dissappear at higher speeds, >45 or so. not sure what to look for. I had an alignment right after the suspension upgrade.
2) at higher speeds (60 or so) there is def a noticeable grinding like sound when i touch or left off the peddle. sounds like its a u-joint on my rear drive shaft. no play in the shaft, its tight.
OP, did you get your problem solved? what did you end up doing? Im curious to know, i'm also trying to keep my xj relatively stock, well with an upcountry suspension upgrade. This is my dd so id like it to go forever if I can help it.
08-14-2018, 03:58 PM
#22
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i called the shop who installed the leafs. he said the u-bolts would have been torqued to spec. i asked whether that was on or off a lift and he said it didnt matter. i didnt argue with him, id already made the decision (for other reasons) I wasnt going to use this shop again.
but to help clear up my understanding, u-bolts, torqued under the weight of the vehicle vs torqued on a lift will have an effect on the pinion angle? i get that its the difference of suspension loaded (vehicle on the ground) vs. unloaded (vehicle in the air supported on jack stands). but how would that change the pinion angle? would the rear axle flex/turn once the suspension is loaded if the u-bolts are tightened while in the air?
Lets suppose my u-bolts were torqued while the jeep was on a lift, what am I to do now? I dont have a lift, or jack/stands.
but to help clear up my understanding, u-bolts, torqued under the weight of the vehicle vs torqued on a lift will have an effect on the pinion angle? i get that its the difference of suspension loaded (vehicle on the ground) vs. unloaded (vehicle in the air supported on jack stands). but how would that change the pinion angle? would the rear axle flex/turn once the suspension is loaded if the u-bolts are tightened while in the air?
Lets suppose my u-bolts were torqued while the jeep was on a lift, what am I to do now? I dont have a lift, or jack/stands.
08-15-2018, 08:50 AM
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08-15-2018, 09:44 AM
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You could try loosening the u-bolts, shock mounts (optional) and the leaf bolts and then rocking the Jeep a bunch back and forth and up and down.
I recently did my leaf springs and when I was ready to do the final torquing I lowered it off the jacks and rocked it a bit (some folks suggest driving it a couple hundred feet) and sat my 200+ person in the trunk and bounced a bit. I then torqued it to spec and it drives great now.
The one thing to consider is that OEM U-bolts are torque to yield, so you're supposed to use them once. Probably you'll be ok though.
I recently did my leaf springs and when I was ready to do the final torquing I lowered it off the jacks and rocked it a bit (some folks suggest driving it a couple hundred feet) and sat my 200+ person in the trunk and bounced a bit. I then torqued it to spec and it drives great now.
The one thing to consider is that OEM U-bolts are torque to yield, so you're supposed to use them once. Probably you'll be ok though.
08-15-2018, 04:16 PM
#25
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Long and short...don't get too hung up with torque on lift vs. ground. If you are worried, go check the torque with them on the ground. You are supposed to do this after a few hundred miles anyways, and you'll undoubtedly find that your u-bolts have loosened somewhat (normal because they stretch at first).
08-15-2018, 08:53 PM
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Thanks for the insight jordan. i was thinking it could be pinion angle bc my rear diff is angled slightly up but at the same time im not sure this angle would be that much of an issue. im almost certain the ujoints are a problem. im going to have a shop take a look and go from there.
08-16-2018, 08:40 PM
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Thanks for the insight jordan. i was thinking it could be pinion angle bc my rear diff is angled slightly up but at the same time im not sure this angle would be that much of an issue. im almost certain the ujoints are a problem. im going to have a shop take a look and go from there.
went to install new Spicer Unis in 2 driveshafts..same problem, uni got real tight..rang Spicer...technician advised following;
"this is common in the field, bevel the c-clips" !!...so I did that with one...hasnt fallen apart yet. The other one, put the old unis back in
alternatively, the yoke may be a bit deformed
08-28-2018, 12:11 PM
#28
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Whatever problems remain, it is highly unlikely that this is the cause. Although the FSM does call for the final torque to be applied to the fasteners once the vehicle is resting on the suspension, in practice there is not much difference. The leaf front/rear bushings are not hard mounted to the leaf spring eye bolts (they rotate), so it would make very little difference if they were torqued on a lift or on the ground. The main item would be the axle to leaf spring fasteners (u-bolts). The thing is, that the axle is located by the spring bolt and its corresponding hole in the axle spring perch. The perch sets the angle of the leaf springs, and the spring bolt locates the spring on the plate. So the pinion angle is not going to be significantly affected by torqueing the fasteners on the ground vs. on a lift. I did my own leafs/lift, and my guess is that final torque while on the ground is more to do with ensuring that the torque remains where it should. When torqued off the ground, there is the risk of things settling when the weight is set on the suspension and things being loose. But the pinion angle would not be changing. At least not enough to cause issues.
Long and short...don't get too hung up with torque on lift vs. ground. If you are worried, go check the torque with them on the ground. You are supposed to do this after a few hundred miles anyways, and you'll undoubtedly find that your u-bolts have loosened somewhat (normal because they stretch at first).
Long and short...don't get too hung up with torque on lift vs. ground. If you are worried, go check the torque with them on the ground. You are supposed to do this after a few hundred miles anyways, and you'll undoubtedly find that your u-bolts have loosened somewhat (normal because they stretch at first).
anyway, i told them im not sold on their solution. I dont think its the t-case. it worked just fine up until i put new suspension on. (new fluid twice since ive owned it past 80k miles) but im not mechanic, and I dont wheel in this thing. they said they wanted to do the fix, if it works, I pay, if it doesnt fix it, its on them. so i told em go ahead.
But im just wondering if a slip yoke elimintaor kit with CV driveshaft is what I need. I understand I dont have a 4.5" lift. but i do think my upcountry suspension sits higher than normal for this setup, still at 20+" from center wheel to bottom of fender flare. maybe it'll settle more but im 200+ miles on the new suspension. at that height I think its approaching the need for a SYE kit. maybe not.
just venting my frustration and curious what you think about the SYE CV driveshaft option. had i known i would be in this much $$ before i started I prob would have gone a different route. but too late now. I'm all-in just want it driving without the grinding and vibration.
08-28-2018, 02:05 PM
#29
Beach Bum
With the transfer case, the only thing that changes when the rear driveshaft is not installed is the load on rear output shaft. All the same parts are turning so I don't see how the shop can diagnose a grinding issue in the TC just because it does not make noise with rear shaft removed.
The chain in TC can stretch over time and drag on the bottom of case, but that is not a common issue. Usually a bad bearing will make excessive heat, an infra-red temperature gun is handy for finding or confirming these heat spikes. The bearings are not that difficult to replace but the case will have to be opened up.
The chain in TC can stretch over time and drag on the bottom of case, but that is not a common issue. Usually a bad bearing will make excessive heat, an infra-red temperature gun is handy for finding or confirming these heat spikes. The bearings are not that difficult to replace but the case will have to be opened up.
08-28-2018, 02:34 PM
#30
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I’m not familiar with a t-case internals. I’m just skeptical. I tend to think the vibration is caused be the increased angle of the drive shaft. Just not sure what causes the grinding upon acceleration/deceleration.