all is good thank you again and yes I went to 175. I checked mutiple places and got the same answer.

 

x2 here, (auto technician) not a good idea to use half a torque spec because of anti seize. some of the info going on around here is getting a little scary lately, just my humble opinion though.

 

I have used a torch, punch, wax, and a 3 foot breaker bar and the nut will not budge.
Can I take off my hub bolts and pull the axle out with the hub and just get a new axle?

 

You can do that...

 

there's no need to do that, get the nut toasty, and get yourself a longer breaker bar. put a pipe on the one you have, it will come off. worst case i'd take it to a shop and ask them to bust the nut loose, and then retorque it so you can go home. probably charge you 0-20 bux.

 

If I move the cherokee the wheel bearing will most likely sieze, plus it gets so hot my brake fluid starts to boil in the line and the pedal goes to the floor.

 

I seem to spend an awful lot of time explaining this...

First, note that torque specs as given in manuals are for "clean, dry" threads unless otherwise noted. Two examples that come readily to mind are the crankshaft nose screw (80 pound-feet, clean engine oil) and the #11 cylinder head screw on the 242ci (100 pound-feet, PTFE paste, vice 110 pound-feet for the other thirteen.)

Second, note that when you're tightening a screw to a specified torque (turning force) value, you are actually setting up a tensile preload (stretch) in the screw. Torque is a means of measuring that indirectly - it should be noted that, in several countries, what we call a "torque wrench" is (probably more properly) known as a "tension wrench" - since that's exactly what you're doing. In the case of screws, a certain tensile preload is necessary to the longevity of the screwed/bolted joint. Gasketed joints require a certain amount of clamping force for the gasket to function properly - varies by gasket material, fluid being retained, pressure involved, and a few other factors. Bearings require a certain amount of "preload" to avoid premature failure.

That being said, the "clean, dry" spec is subject to change by the addition of lubricants. When you change the friction between the internal and external thread (lubrication and/or contamination,) you are changing the effective tensile preload put on the screw for a given torque applied. If the friction between the threads is increased (corrosion, dirt, or other contamination,) the applied preload is reduced proportionately. If the friction between the threads is decreased, the applied preload will be increased accordingly - possibly to the point of failure, if the applied preload exceeds the limits of the material. It is possible, in some cases, to literally pull the threads right out of whatever you're tightening the screw into!

The thumb rules for adjusting torque specifications from "clean, dry" values due to the application of lubricants/compounds is as follows:

100% - Threadlockers. These are formulated so as to provide no extra lubricity to the threads.
90% - Thread sealants, PTFE-based (the carrier goop reduces the lubricity of the PTFE/Teflon.)
66% - Clean engine oil or chassis grease.
50% - Anti-Seize compounds, whatever base (aluminum, nickel, copper, ...)

As you can see, the greater the lubricant effect, the sooner you will reach the specified tensile preload of the join. I'd been doing this for years without knowing the actual mechanics behind it - until I finally took Materials & Processes a few years back. I was then able to experimentally verify these "rules" within a certain margin of error. (Actually, I was able to experimentally verify a number of mechanic's thumb rules I'd picked up - and followed without knowing why. Nice having access to equipment...)

Interestingly, I also noted that you are able to apply a more consistent tensile preload when the threads are lubricated - the greater the lubricating effect, the more consistent the preload will be. In a series of 25 joins, I was able to note the following variation:

20-22% for "clean, dry" threads.
15-17% for PTFE-based sealants
10-12% for clean engine oil/chassis grease
2-5% for Anti-Seize compounds.

I also found similar variations when measuring preload in tapered roller bearing sets, where preload was set by using a threaded fastener through the bearing; as well as similar variation in preload as a function of applied torque to achieve a specified preload value.

Granted, this was merely a verification of what I'd already known practically for a couple dozen years, and I was just able to verify the mechanics of it using instrumentation, instead of "makes sense to me."

Since I don't like to install any fastener within 24" of the road plane dry, you can imagine how much better I felt to actually know what was going on!

 

so do you put anti seize on your lug nuts and tighten them to 45 fl/lb. not buying it, i've been a professional tech too long to go along with that elaborate explanation. i will say i rarely use anti seize, and it does effect torque values. i rarely use it cuz if you torque something properly it isn't that hard to remove. and i live in the midwest, i deal with rust, it has its uses, but not on everything.

if you apply anti seize to a spark plug, which when done liberally causes problems, do you torque them to 12 ft/lb, or better yet a valve cover gasket, or trans pan gasket do you torque to 5 lb/ft. see where i'm going here. the factory does not use lubricants on most threads.

 

I'm aware of that last point - it's more to do with economics of production than anything else (save three bucks on a half-million vehicles, and you're getting somewhere. Save three bucks on one vehicle? Why?)

And, that said, I don't use never-seez on bloody everything. As I think I said, I'll use it on high-torque/high-tension fasteners that are down by the road grade, that are commonly crudded up, and commonly seize or freeze (and I can't find alternate solutions. There are very few where that isn't possible - for instance, I've been using all brass or bronze hardware on my exhaust for years. It's much easier to release than carbon steel!)

Never installing a screw dry doesn't mean it automatically gets never-seez - it's most often LocTite #222 or #242, which has the dual effect of locking the screw in place chemically and preventing thread seizure. Win-freakin'-win!

Any screw that goes into the water jacket (like water pump screws or thermostat housing screws) will get coated with either RTV or PTFE paste, reduced by 10%, and torqued into place. No leaks, no trouble.

Spark plugs are one of the few things I don't put anything on - I don't want to interfere with the ground. They damned sure don't get never-seez, unless the vehicle has a Hx of the plugs sticking in the threads (and I usually put a large notation in the manual or notebook for that vehicle!)

I grew up in the Midwest (Lafayette, IN - with family still in Monon, Monticello, and Terre Haute...) and I know why it's called the "rust belt." Perhaps I'd gotten shonky lug bolts, but I know I had the worst trouble with my old Bug while I was back there - until I started using never-seez on them. Once I did that, I kept a beam-type torque wrench with the right socket on it in the back of the car - and I marked where the lugs would get torqued to on the scale. Problem solved. Granted, I think they've long since stopped salting the roads - I've been here in CA for the last 20 years.

But, know that I'll never advise someone to do something I wouldn't do, or haven't been doing for a number of years. I first replace a hub bearing on my 87 about ten years ago torquing by this method, and it's still going strong. It may be odd and different - but it's doesn't seem to be any more or less "wrong" than what the manual tells you to do.

Bear in mind that much of what the manual tells you to do is borne of the economics of production and in the interests of efficiency in service. When you're a hobbyist working on your own vehicle, it's not a big problem to put just a touch more time, effort, money, and material into something in order to make the next job easier for yourself. I do all jobs with the assumption that the next poor bastid to work on it will be me, and I'll have little more than my Gerber Multi-Tool, my Swisschamp, a folding spade, an ax, and a hammer - plan accordingly!

Same reason I replace cotter pins with mechanic's safety pins - easier to handle in the field. Do I have to do that? No. Do I feel better that I've done it that way? Betcher' **** I do! If things to blow up, I've made them easier to solve reliably.

Same reason I overbuild my mods and gear - I've dealt with gear failures, and I'm tired of them.

 

Whats a Mechanic's Safety pin? i never heard of this.

 

whattever, hell i couldn't even read all that crap.

please torque your bolts to factory spec's, even when using grease or anti-seize. otherwise the FSM would specify a new torque value if using anti-seize. they don't.

that's why you should let the torque wrench click at least twice, especially on dry threads. to be sure you're at the specified torque value.

improper torque is the leading cause of premature failure, especially in the hub bearing assembly. if it fails, you will loose your front wheel.

i use anti-seize on almost every bolt. but i live in canada where we not only use salt on our roads, we also use liquid brine. that stuff is even worse than salt. so if you want to talk about rust....

 

Looks somethng like this -


I know - that's from a jewelry site, but you can usually find them at hardware stores in the same place as cotters. Difference is - they're reusable (cotters are not.)

 

I am having the exact same issue... I've tried everything I've read online except an impact. Don't have access to one. I'm getting nowehere after 3 days... The 36mm axle nut is the only thing keeping me from finishing the job.

 

if you have an autozone up where you are they have elec impacts, its totally worth it if i didnt buy mine for when i did my hubs and shafts i never woulda got done

 

There are no autozones in Alaska, but there is a shucks and napa... napa kinda sucks though so I usualy use shucks.