Death Wobble on stock setup, shocks ??
02-09-2009, 08:37 AM
#1
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Year: 97 Grand cherokee Limited
Model: Grand Cherokee
Engine: 5.2L
Death Wobble on stock setup, shocks ??
Hi guys,
I am experiencing the death wobble issue. It wasn't that bad until a couple weeks ago. Now I can barely drive my vehicle. I went to the mechanic and then mentioned that this is because both my front shocks are blown. Can this be the cause of the problem ??
I've read a couple of articles and none of them involve the shocks has being the cause of this issue.
Just want to make sure I don't buy shocks for no reason...
My mechanic also told me that everything is tight in the front end and in good shape.
Any input appreciated, thanks !
I am experiencing the death wobble issue. It wasn't that bad until a couple weeks ago. Now I can barely drive my vehicle. I went to the mechanic and then mentioned that this is because both my front shocks are blown. Can this be the cause of the problem ??
I've read a couple of articles and none of them involve the shocks has being the cause of this issue.
Just want to make sure I don't buy shocks for no reason...
My mechanic also told me that everything is tight in the front end and in good shape.
Any input appreciated, thanks !
02-09-2009, 08:54 AM
#2
aka Wade-O
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Year: 1989 Comanche
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
he is wrong. its not the shocks.
jack up the front and start shaking any and everything. look for worn control arm and tracbar bushings, tie-rod ends, ball joints.
jack up the front and start shaking any and everything. look for worn control arm and tracbar bushings, tie-rod ends, ball joints.
02-09-2009, 09:02 AM
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Year: 1987
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 liter RENIX I-6, DIY Cold Air Intake, 2.5 FM Exhaust, 3 Core Radiator
The first 2 places to look for Death Wobble are:
1.) Track Bar: Look for it to be loose at the top or borrom. OEM torque spec is 72 ft. lbs. bottom bolt and 64 ft. lbs. top bolt. Look for play in the bushing on the bottom mount and play in the ball joint at the upper mount. Any play whatso ever in the track bar will cause play in steering or death wobble. Closley inspect every part of track bar.
2.) Steering Linkage: Look for any play at any of the tirrod ends. Have somebody wiggle steering wheel while you inspect the tierod ends. Also check that your steering box is tight to the frame and that the sector rod (center of steering box) has no play. Closely inspact every part of steering linkage from the box down to the wheels (main upper and lower ball joints).
1.) Track Bar: Look for it to be loose at the top or borrom. OEM torque spec is 72 ft. lbs. bottom bolt and 64 ft. lbs. top bolt. Look for play in the bushing on the bottom mount and play in the ball joint at the upper mount. Any play whatso ever in the track bar will cause play in steering or death wobble. Closley inspect every part of track bar.
2.) Steering Linkage: Look for any play at any of the tirrod ends. Have somebody wiggle steering wheel while you inspect the tierod ends. Also check that your steering box is tight to the frame and that the sector rod (center of steering box) has no play. Closely inspact every part of steering linkage from the box down to the wheels (main upper and lower ball joints).
02-09-2009, 09:09 AM
#5
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Year: 97 Grand cherokee Limited
Model: Grand Cherokee
Engine: 5.2L
He did mentioned that there is some loose in my steering box itselft could this be the culprit, would I need to change the steering box ?
02-09-2009, 09:12 AM
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Year: 1987
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 liter RENIX I-6, DIY Cold Air Intake, 2.5 FM Exhaust, 3 Core Radiator
"ANY" play at all in the steering box can cause death wobble. Check it out and see if it is something you can tighten up yourself. Then if you can't, replace it. Be sure to inspect all of the other componants I mentioned earlier as well. If your little XJ has as many miles as mine does, you could have a a combination of problems causing this.
02-09-2009, 09:19 AM
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Year: 97 Grand cherokee Limited
Model: Grand Cherokee
Engine: 5.2L
Yes high milleage !
Is a steering box expensive ?
A month ago it was doing it not often at all like once every 2 weeks maybe ... now it went bad it won't stop doing it
... does that help to single any parts out ?
Is a steering box expensive ?
A month ago it was doing it not often at all like once every 2 weeks maybe ... now it went bad it won't stop doing it
... does that help to single any parts out ?
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02-09-2009, 09:21 AM
#8
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Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
your first post says everything is tight, all gear boxes have a small amount of play, and to have a little at hi mileage will be fine. it there's a lot then i'd be worried, but you'd notice it more than just having dw. i doubt its the gear box.
02-09-2009, 09:34 AM
#9
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Year: 1987
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 liter RENIX I-6, DIY Cold Air Intake, 2.5 FM Exhaust, 3 Core Radiator
There are 3 different Power Steering Boxes available at O'Reiley auto parts.
Cardone for $140
Lares for $160
ATSCO for $168
I don't know if any one is better than the others. If you get one with a lifetime warranty, then your covered for the life of the rig.
No, what you said really doesn't nail down any one part. Death wobble can still be caused by any of the parts I mentioned earlier. Just sounds like it started out as an intermittent problem that got worse.
Cardone for $140
Lares for $160
ATSCO for $168
I don't know if any one is better than the others. If you get one with a lifetime warranty, then your covered for the life of the rig.
No, what you said really doesn't nail down any one part. Death wobble can still be caused by any of the parts I mentioned earlier. Just sounds like it started out as an intermittent problem that got worse.
02-09-2009, 09:49 AM
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it could also be the alignment. some mechanic shops don't look at this.
take it to an alignment shop, they should be able to tell if it's out right away.
take it to an alignment shop, they should be able to tell if it's out right away.
02-09-2009, 10:47 AM
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Year: 1998
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0, bolt ons for days...
Curing death wobble is definetly a reality. Death wobble isn’t similar to a wobble from an unbalanced tire. It is by far worse. When death wobble hits you will know… it’s a violent shake form the front end that feels like the Jeep is about to fall apart. Usually when it happens the only thing you can do to stop it is slow down. The first steps to eliminate death wobble should be a visual inspection of each component, check the bushings, tire balance and an alignment. There are some common things you must check anytime you lift your Jeep. Death wobble is experienced mostly on lifter Jeeps, however it is not uncommon for someone without a lift to experience the dreaded DW. Listed below are a few things you can check.
Torque specs:
Item ........................................ Ft. lbs. ................... Nm
Lug nuts (1/2 X 20 w/ 60* cone) .... 85-115 .............. 115-150
All tie rod ends ............................ 55 ..................... 74
Steering (both ends) .................... 55 ..................... 74
Shock absorber upper nut .............. 16 ..................... 22
Shock absorber lower nuts ............. 17 ..................... 23
UCA frame end ............................. 66 ..................... 89
UCA axle end ............................... 55 ...................... 74
LCA frame end ............................. 85 ...................... 115
LCA axle end ............................... 85 ...................... 115
Track bar frame end ..................... 60 ...................... 81
Track bar axle end ....................... 40 ....................... 54
Track bar bracket bolts ................. 92 ....................... 125
Track bar bracket nut ................... 74 ....................... 100
Track bar bracket support bolts ...... 31 ....................... 42
Hub bolts (3) ............................... 75 ....................... 102
Hub- axle bolt .............................. 175 ..................... 237
Alingment specs (stock):
Angle ............. Preferred ........... Range ............. Max R/L diff.
Caster ............ +7.0* ........ +5.25* to +8.5* ......... 1.25*
Camber ........... -0.25* ....... -0.75* to +0.5 ........... 1.0*
Total Toe-in .... +0.25* ....... 0* to +0.45* ............. .05*
Thrust angle .... 0* to ± 0.15*
Check your Track Bar, play in this can cause the axle to shake.
1. Bushings - check to see that they are not worn. Looks for cracks, and excessive play)
2. Angles - this angle should be the same as your draglink. Use an angle finders you can get at sears to determine this, don’t just eye-ball it.
3. Bolts – Make sure all bolts are tightened down to spec (some lift components have a different torque spec then)
Check the Axle, your mounts may be worn
1. Check the axle mount. Here is a good write up on a wallowed out bolt hole
http://www.jeepin.com/features/trackbarfix/index.asp
2. Check your Universal joints, a binding or lose U-Joint can cause DW
3. On the frame end if you still use the conventional Tie Rod End or (TRE) make sure that there is no play in this, as play can cause DW.
4. Look/Check for worn/torn boots on ball joints/tie-rod ends.
Check your Tires
1. Out of balance tires can cause shaking in the front end, which can lead to death wobble.
2. Make sure all of your lug nuts are tight, (Sounds elementary but it happens to the best of us)
Check your Frame
1. Small cracks in the frame can cause the steering box to feel loose, Shaking from DW can only make this worse. 33’s and larger should have some form of Steering box brace, or frame brace in.
2. If you have upgraded your frame mount, make sure its cranked down nice and tight. (best to use an impact gun)
3. A busted Frame Mount can cause play in the front end causing DW (Keep a watchful eye on the welds as welds in sheer can break over time.
Make sure you have a good alignment
1. After you get an alignment done, have them print out the numbers for you. An XJ should have a 7* positive caster angle. A lifted XJ can’t always have that high of a number because the pinion would become out of alignment with the front driveshaft. Pinion angle takes precedence over caster.
2. Make you sure you go to a place that will adjust the caster if necessary (either by shims in the frame side of the LCAs, or adjustable LCAs).
The more adjustable parts the easier it is to tune in your suspension.
1. Adjustable Track Bar
2. Adjustable Upper and Lower Control Arms (upper ones above 4” of lift). Not only are they adjustable, but they are stronger.
Things to remember:
1. A Steering Stabilizer (SS) is not a quick fix for DW.
Entire list of everything that can cause death wobble:
-Front tires out of balance
-Front alignment out of spec
-Loose track bar
-Worn track bar bushings
-Worn track bar end
-Need adjustable track bar
-Bad bushings/joints in control arms
-Worn/damaged steering stabilizer
-Worn/damaged shocks
-Worn/damaged tie rod end
-Bad U Joint
-Bad ball joint
-Loose frame mount
-Steering box looseness
-Need drop pitman arm
-Driveshaft(s) not balanced
-Bad front hub assembly
Torque specs:
Item ........................................ Ft. lbs. ................... Nm
Lug nuts (1/2 X 20 w/ 60* cone) .... 85-115 .............. 115-150
All tie rod ends ............................ 55 ..................... 74
Steering (both ends) .................... 55 ..................... 74
Shock absorber upper nut .............. 16 ..................... 22
Shock absorber lower nuts ............. 17 ..................... 23
UCA frame end ............................. 66 ..................... 89
UCA axle end ............................... 55 ...................... 74
LCA frame end ............................. 85 ...................... 115
LCA axle end ............................... 85 ...................... 115
Track bar frame end ..................... 60 ...................... 81
Track bar axle end ....................... 40 ....................... 54
Track bar bracket bolts ................. 92 ....................... 125
Track bar bracket nut ................... 74 ....................... 100
Track bar bracket support bolts ...... 31 ....................... 42
Hub bolts (3) ............................... 75 ....................... 102
Hub- axle bolt .............................. 175 ..................... 237
Alingment specs (stock):
Angle ............. Preferred ........... Range ............. Max R/L diff.
Caster ............ +7.0* ........ +5.25* to +8.5* ......... 1.25*
Camber ........... -0.25* ....... -0.75* to +0.5 ........... 1.0*
Total Toe-in .... +0.25* ....... 0* to +0.45* ............. .05*
Thrust angle .... 0* to ± 0.15*
Check your Track Bar, play in this can cause the axle to shake.
1. Bushings - check to see that they are not worn. Looks for cracks, and excessive play)
2. Angles - this angle should be the same as your draglink. Use an angle finders you can get at sears to determine this, don’t just eye-ball it.
3. Bolts – Make sure all bolts are tightened down to spec (some lift components have a different torque spec then)
Check the Axle, your mounts may be worn
1. Check the axle mount. Here is a good write up on a wallowed out bolt hole
http://www.jeepin.com/features/trackbarfix/index.asp
2. Check your Universal joints, a binding or lose U-Joint can cause DW
3. On the frame end if you still use the conventional Tie Rod End or (TRE) make sure that there is no play in this, as play can cause DW.
4. Look/Check for worn/torn boots on ball joints/tie-rod ends.
Check your Tires
1. Out of balance tires can cause shaking in the front end, which can lead to death wobble.
2. Make sure all of your lug nuts are tight, (Sounds elementary but it happens to the best of us)
Check your Frame
1. Small cracks in the frame can cause the steering box to feel loose, Shaking from DW can only make this worse. 33’s and larger should have some form of Steering box brace, or frame brace in.
2. If you have upgraded your frame mount, make sure its cranked down nice and tight. (best to use an impact gun)
3. A busted Frame Mount can cause play in the front end causing DW (Keep a watchful eye on the welds as welds in sheer can break over time.
Make sure you have a good alignment
1. After you get an alignment done, have them print out the numbers for you. An XJ should have a 7* positive caster angle. A lifted XJ can’t always have that high of a number because the pinion would become out of alignment with the front driveshaft. Pinion angle takes precedence over caster.
2. Make you sure you go to a place that will adjust the caster if necessary (either by shims in the frame side of the LCAs, or adjustable LCAs).
The more adjustable parts the easier it is to tune in your suspension.
1. Adjustable Track Bar
2. Adjustable Upper and Lower Control Arms (upper ones above 4” of lift). Not only are they adjustable, but they are stronger.
Things to remember:
1. A Steering Stabilizer (SS) is not a quick fix for DW.
Entire list of everything that can cause death wobble:
-Front tires out of balance
-Front alignment out of spec
-Loose track bar
-Worn track bar bushings
-Worn track bar end
-Need adjustable track bar
-Bad bushings/joints in control arms
-Worn/damaged steering stabilizer
-Worn/damaged shocks
-Worn/damaged tie rod end
-Bad U Joint
-Bad ball joint
-Loose frame mount
-Steering box looseness
-Need drop pitman arm
-Driveshaft(s) not balanced
-Bad front hub assembly
02-09-2009, 11:07 AM
#12
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Year: 1987
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Very nice and complete Quoted write up. I'm sure it will help immensely.
02-09-2009, 12:22 PM
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Year: 97 Grand cherokee Limited
Model: Grand Cherokee
Engine: 5.2L
--> steering stabalizer is not a quick fix ...
Ya i've been arguing that with my dad and his friend mechanic told him that he knows the problem and happened before and its FOR SURE the stabilizer. my dad is all hoped up and sure it's that he ordered the parts and made an appointment at the shop... I gave him the keys since i work all day and he's retired and he could take it to the shop once I decide to fix it... But he took it upon himself looks like to get it fixed ...
ah well maybe it's going to hide the problem lol !
- I had a pretty good argument against him: he's like well my mechanix knows the problem and done it before. Im like well its not the cause of the issue it might mask it a little bit for a while but wont fix it and I have the knowledge and experience of hundreds of jeep owners that have had the same issue ! hehe
Ill get back on thursday once they change the stabilizer and give you guys the outcome.
Ya i've been arguing that with my dad and his friend mechanic told him that he knows the problem and happened before and its FOR SURE the stabilizer. my dad is all hoped up and sure it's that he ordered the parts and made an appointment at the shop... I gave him the keys since i work all day and he's retired and he could take it to the shop once I decide to fix it... But he took it upon himself looks like to get it fixed ...
ah well maybe it's going to hide the problem lol !
- I had a pretty good argument against him: he's like well my mechanix knows the problem and done it before. Im like well its not the cause of the issue it might mask it a little bit for a while but wont fix it and I have the knowledge and experience of hundreds of jeep owners that have had the same issue ! hehe
Ill get back on thursday once they change the stabilizer and give you guys the outcome.
02-09-2009, 02:00 PM
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02-12-2009, 09:51 AM
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Year: 97 Grand cherokee Limited
Model: Grand Cherokee
Engine: 5.2L
Allright so I got a new stabilizer ... So far the wobble is gone. the steering is working a lil better as well .. more stable.
I can feel that some parts are still wobbling a lil bit but the stabilizer is doing it's job and making sure its not getting out of control ...
How long will it last ?? only time will tell !
I can feel that some parts are still wobbling a lil bit but the stabilizer is doing it's job and making sure its not getting out of control ...
How long will it last ?? only time will tell !