robsjeep

2001 Cherokee 4.0 liter

brand new head. One lifter is collapsed. Worked fine for first 100 miles, then intake on number three collapsed. Removed rocker arm and find push rod is squishy. How can we get this lifter to pump up again? All lifters were brand new when we replaced the head. Oil pressure is within limits.

thanks

Bugout4x4

There is a gentleman having the same issue here if you want to read this discussion from the beginning.

https://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/00-...cement-241206/

robsjeep

engine is dead

couldnt get the lifter to pump up. Removed head, pulled the offending lifter and found it had a hole in the bottom of the lifter, the cam wore a hole right thru it within 100 miles of replacement, all 12 lifters were replaced when head was replaced. Needless to say, the Jeep is not going to death valley tomorrow, instead the ford will go. We really wanted the four wheel drive. when we get back we will have to deal with it, probably a full rebuild?

nothing but frustration.



so why would this brand new lifter fail like that? What went wrong? Its not like we ran it without oil or anything, it just rapidly wore a hole. too bad, the engine ran strong before we started to deal with the cracked head. Even ran great with the new head and 12 lifters, until it failed in 100 miles

Now this, ugh!,,

Advice, diagnosis?

thanks

Turbo X_J

Assuming you used copious amounts of moly assembly lube on the base of the lifters?


It's a crap shoot, sometimes new lifters won't rotate on a used cam, when they don't rotate they burn up in short order. That's why it's important since lifters wear in with the cam that if the lifters are ever removed they should be replaced in the same bore.

firebane

To make note as well if lifters are being replaced bores should be cleaned with a good brass brush to ensure any build up has been removed. I have seen people not do this and lifters get stuck.

extrashaky

The cam lobe and lifter develop a matching wear pattern during break in. You took away the matching lifter and replaced it with a new one that didn't match yet. Usually that works, and the new lifter wears into place. But sometimes it doesn't. I would try again with the care in cleaning and the moly lube these guys suggested.

Personally I think I would also run a high zinc oil for 3000 miles or so just for extra protection of the camshaft, either Mobil 1 High Mileage or a hot rod oil like Driven 10W30. Or even Rotella, although it nauseates me to suggest it.

Also, while the head is off you might want to pull the other lifters that didn't fail and inspect them for signs that they also aren't rotating. Just make sure they get back to the same lobes that they have already mated with. It would suck to replace this lifter, put it all back together and have another one fail 50 miles down the road.

Bugout4x4

You are absolutely right... while the common thought is that putting new lifters on an old cam is just fine, I have seen it fail 7 out of 10 times more than I have seen it succeed. It's a gamble and one must be in the frame of mind it might have to come apart again and time was wasted to try it. If this wiped a lifter that fast, I would highly suggest a new cam and lifter set at this point. Besides... it's an opportunity to put a mild performance grind in it while he is at it.

CoffeeCommando

Only buy engine parts that are made in America. If you buy parts made in other countries (like Melling's lifters are made in Mexico, as it says on the box - I am shipping those back to summit racing next week), you're gambling.

For jeep valvetrain I only trust EngineTech and Mopar. EngineTech is the OEM supplier of the lifters and cam for the 4.0 engine. You can find all the right parts you need on RockAuto. I just finished putting in my 5th and final engine. I've had 3 wiped cam lobes and 1 collapsed lifter.

This past year I put in EnginTech Lifters and a MOPAR cam. My engine overheated due to some experimental stuff I was doing and instead of a wiped cam lobe or a collapsed lifter I had a bent push rod for the first time ever (it was due to a stuck valve). I pulled the engine apart and had the cam and lifters inspected. They're fine and ready for re-use. I ordered the Melling parts expecting they were USA made, but found out otherwise when they arrived. I am certain if I would have had some made in Mexico lifters in there I'd be replacing a cam and lifters, as well as having the block taken to a machinist for cleaning and inspection. $200 is a lot cheaper to pay for up front than $3000 after the fact.

Lifters don't have to be a crap shoot. Also, always add zinc to every oil change. Zinc has been reduced thanks to the EPA and it's wiping out older flat tappet style engines. I also recommend you avoid all forms of FRAM and other low-end filters. Don't gamble on that either.

And when you put new lifters in, you need to use break in oil just like you're breaking in a cam. Otherwise you will destroy the cam/lifters. You can keep a cam and get new lifters (I don't recommend it, it's too much work and time to get that far and then not replace a cam... and I wouldn't expect it to last more than a few thousand miles, I think all the perpetuation of using new lifters on old cams might work on other engines or be okay for race engines that are constantly being torn down and rebuilt, but don't expect to go 50 or 100k miles on that setup).

extrashaky

Myth. There is no evidence that is happening to our 4.0L engines. Considering that the overwhelming majority of XJs are running whatever Jiffy Lube or the like puts in them (which isn't a high zinc oil), we should be seeing rampant camshaft failures if low zinc were a problem. We aren't.

Extra ZDDP is a good idea here because he's breaking in mating surfaces. There is no evidence it's needed after those mate up.

CoffeeCommando

3 wiped cam lobes and 1 collapsed lifter. I have real world experience. Your myth is a myth. My machinist that has been doing performance and daily driven street for the past 40 years also told me to make sure I do that, but I already learned it previously. There's a reason there are increasing volumes of Jeep 4.0's showing up on youtube with engine noises (and 8 out of 10 times it sounds like a lifter is getting ready to fall apart or wipe a cam lobe). Whatever happened to them lasting 300 and even 400 thousand miles? The symptoms are there. Anyone who thinks it is a "myth" is just being dense and wants to argue.

The articles on the subject abound on the Internet as well. I guess using a new cam with old lifters is a myth too. Maybe I should put in a new cam and lifters and just use Pennzoil and no zinc additive there. I bet that's also a myth.


FYI: In the video below the guy recommends Zinc Hyperlube. I personally won't gamble with it since Zinc is a dark substance. I don't bother with imitations, get the real deal. The only thing I am never certain of myself is how much to use. I buy the Lucas 16 oz additive and add it in. It's a thick dark brown substance, but it's also about $17 a bottle.


Another thing you can do is add just a few ounces of BestLine engine treatment. The stuff is expensive but just a few ounces will go a long way. You can read the reviews of it on Amazon. Not too many people buy it because of the price. I saw a guy run a bearing test using it and comparing it to other oils. He had been at it trying to find an anti-friction lubricant for a few months, and nothing came close to doing what that stuff did.

As you can tell I am not a *****foot'n diletante when it comes to investigating engine longevity. After 6 engine swaps in the past 5 years I've been in the U.S. you would be out looking to cut through the BS as well. There's a lot of misinformation and disinformation. Bad science does abound. If it's not replicable or can't produce real world results that actually matter, I don't put any stock in it.

CoffeeCommando

Here's another one I just found that really goes into the science behind it.

BTW, I see you also have a Golen 4.6. I hope you had your head checked. I did after the overheat last year and I had 132lbs of seat pressure on the springs. Chad said it as 120lbs but when Dean tested them they were actually 132.. I told Chad I wanted OEM specs in the valvetrain and he still didn't do it. The OEM spec range is 64-74lbs closed, not 132. That's race engine specs to prevent valve float at high RPM. I pulled out the cam that was in there and put in a MOPAR and now I have the seat pressures corrected. The valve seats were also varying heights from one combustion chamber to the next. Very shoddy work according to my machinist. he didn't approve of it and he had 3 or 4 4.0 heads laying around and he showed me the difference on the one he just finished vs. the one I got. Don't expect that engine to last much longer than the warranty, especially if you're not using zinc. I don't know about you but I want my engine to last several hundred thousand miles before the next rebuild, not 40. If you are running a non-OEM thickness of head gasket you should also be running short/longer push rods to account for the valve train geometry. Lifters are meant to run within a .030" range, and things like decking the head to 0 and using a thinner head gasket throw that off regardless of valve seat pressure. The seat pressure will just add more tension to the surfaces of the cam lobes and lifters.

Like I said, I've been to the rodeo 4 times on stroker engines. This will be the last one. It can't be corrected to OEM specs any more than it already is, and if it fails there is no hope anymore and I'm going back to a 4.0 with a supercharger.

Bugout4x4

Now this is the detailed homework that needs to be done with all engines. When I just rebuilt my heads the springs had got hot and lost a bit of rating. So I had to go the other way and shim them up to get my rating back. This kind of detail is a prerequisite and much more important than anything else in this debate.

extrashaky

On a stock 4.0L after a successful break in?

People post here all the time with mileage of 400K miles. All you're talking about is confirmation bias. Someone's engine has a problem, and since you have already bought into this zinc nonsense you take that as "proof" that it needed zinc with no actual evidence that it did.

But hey, let's also start posting videos that actually contradict our claims! Here's one:

The chemist at 3:02:

"Well, it's not a problem once the engine's broken in. The big issue is when they break the engine in. So, if the're rebuilding an older engine, they really need to use something like a racing oil, where there's a higher level of phosphorous in it. And racing oils, they can still be up to the 1200 parts per million and get a good break in on the oil, on the engine. After that, they're fine running at the 800 parts per million."

Derp. Myth. I'm not sure how you can sit there and write that you need zinc additive at every oil change when your own expert says you're wrong.

Now let's go to the next post:

Except I am using a high zinc oil (Driven HR synthetic), because it's necessary to protect the more aggressive cam in my modified engine. We weren't talking about modified engines. We were talking about stock 4.0L motors.

That's one of the big problems with you zinc zealots. You try to use failed break ins or modified motors as representative of stock motors in normal use. They aren't. My 4.6L and what I put in it has nothing at all to do with whether a stock 4.0L needs extra zinc in its regular oil changes. I have no intention of running high zinc oil in my next stock 4.0L, because there's absolutely no evidence that it needs it.

CoffeeCommando

There's always a shred of truth to the greatest lies and misinformation. It's never black and white. I take what the guy said about not needing ZDDP with a grain of salt. I don't need his opinion on the matter, I can form my own.

You're using high zinc oil and you want to argue about it being a myth that you should use it? You just want to argue for the sake of arguing. I'm done. BTW, you should probably get your estrogen level checked. Bickering over words for the sake of just doing it is a symptom, FYI. You can get saliva tests that give you accurate hormonal profile readings. I bet you have something to say about that being a myth too...

The only engine I had that flopped of the bat wasn't done by me, it was built by Titan. Me and a guy who races as a hobby put it in and broke the cam in and all the jazz, which I have now done myself successfully, also in a shop full of mechanics on base whose sole purpose there is to guide you in your automotive endeavors. You forget we were talking about collapsed lifters, regardless of the engine. I brought in the zinc because it's a factor for flat tappet camshafts. Guess what else has flat tappets beside strokers? 4.0's. It doesn't matter which one you drive, if you want your engine to last like they used to once upon a time, you'll start putting zinc in it.

I don't need your opinion or your approval to know that I know what I am talking about. It's clear you're just another asshat on the internet with a chip on your shoulder. Once again, get your estrogen/estradiol levels checked.

Here's a link in case you don't know where to start:

https://livewelltesting.com/zrt-1-pa...BoCfLMQAvD_BwE

Post an update in the modified tech section when/if your engine makes it to 50k with that cam and the, what appears to be, default one size fits all seat pressures provided by Golen. I will be impressed.

extrashaky

That's hilarious. You posted that video as "proof" the stock 4.0L needs zinc "at every oil change" in a stock 4.0L. Now that I pointed out it actually contradicts you, it's, "Oh, take that with a grain of salt."

That's as perfect an example of confirmation bias as I've ever seen.

A stroker is not a stock 4.0L. I thought you understood that. You go on and on about the higher seat pressures, yet you're still trying to pretend that a 4.6L and a 4.0L are the same thing.

The need for extra zinc in a modified engine does not provide any support whatsoever for running extra zinc in a stock 4.0L. I'm also running 93 octane fuel, which this motor needs because of the higher compression. Next you're going to be telling me that since a 4.6L stroker and a 4.0L stock motor are the same, everyone should be paying extra for 93 octane in their stock motors. (Hint: No.)

Actually, no, I brought it up in post #6, in which I suggested running a high zinc oil for one oil change while the new lifters were breaking in. BREAKING IN, not during normal use.

The difference is that I actually knew why I was bringing it up rather than just jumping on the zinc bandwagon with no real support for doing so. What you said was different. You said that he should be running it at every oil change. There's no evidence that running extra zinc after break in is necessary or beneficial in any way in the stock 4.0L, and even your own expert says it's unnecessary.

LOL. I said the same thing your own expert said, and you're arguing against it.

Oh look, personal insults out of balance with the context. This is a textbook sign of cognitive dissonance. It usually indicates that the person hurling the insults knows his position is indefensible but doesn't know how to extricate himself from the discussion without feeling weak and pitiful.

The reasonable, mature response would be for you to become thoughtful, apologize for the insults and say, "Now that I consider it, you might be right. You have given me a lot to think about." I find the zinc cultists are often not reasonable or mature, but sometimes I get a pleasant surprise.