For all you car audio guys
03-23-2013, 11:08 PM
#31
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Arlington, Texas
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Year: 1998
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Thanks for singling me out.....Soooo, here we go. I see you say you know how to setup a system properly. Then you say you have a Dual headunit PUSHING 40w to your Polks? You believe its 40? How about 15w of "dirty" power going to your Polks just waiting to burn the voice coil up after some long periods of over distorted underpowered signal......That's where the amp comes into play. And its not to overpower them as you started in your decibel comparison but to get good clean power to the speakers. Not to mention IF you know how to setup a system, you will know how to set the crossover on the amp for the mids and highs to go along with the sub.
I by no means am trying to say you cant run your door and rear mids with the headunit. I actually do it for now and a lot of people do it. But I find that your post has alittle misinformation and the fact you tried to single me out I just had to post.......
I by no means am trying to say you cant run your door and rear mids with the headunit. I actually do it for now and a lot of people do it. But I find that your post has alittle misinformation and the fact you tried to single me out I just had to post.......
Now that that is out of the way...
2) I never said I had a Dual head unit "pushing 40w to" my Polks, to use your words. What I said was that I have a Dual 40 watt per channel head unit pushing my Polks. Quite different. I never once claimed that I was actually using (or even expecting to get) a full 40 watts to each channel. I just said that I was using a 40 watt per channel radio to push the speakers. Just like one might use a 25 horsepower lawn tractor to mow their lawn, even though the full 25 horses is not used and rarely needed. My XJ has 190 horsepower, but I don't use (or even need) all of it all the time;almost never actually.
3) Your assertion that the wattage ratings on head units "basically means nothing" is a blanket statement that, well.. basically means nothing. There are some manufacturers that grossly over rate their power output, or rate them at levels beyond the realms of reasonable distortion, but to say that it is meaningless is just stupid. Using that logic, you can say the same thing about wattage ratings on amplifiers. Why are they somehow immune from advertizing B.S.? If you're going to trust the ratings on a Kenwood amp, why not trust them on a Kenwood radio? Or at least realize that they do provide a guideline. And let's not forget that many manufacturers have their products officially rated by one or several independent agencies. Is that meaningless too? Or the fact that many of the internal components are a commodity and made by the same 3-5 companies in China or Japan, and everyone is using many of those parts in their products? Or the fact that we've had the advent of smaller, more powerful Class D amps utilized in head units, which, while arguably not as good on sound quality as Class A or AB amps, can hold their own in most non-audiophile situations, and put out pretty clean signal at higher power levels.
4) If YOU knew anything about how these systems work, or had bothered to read my other posts, you would know that at typical listening levels, you're only putting out fractions of a watt to a few watts per channel. Even at higher levels, you're not using as much power as you think. And it's nominal, not constant. A speaker with an SPL of 89db at 1 watt / 1 meter will output 89db with just one watt of power. At two watts it puts out 92.1db. At 4 watts it puts out 95.2, at 8 watts it's 98.3, and at 16 watts it's 101.4 decibels. That's what an electric steel cut-off saw sounds like from 2 feet away. Effing loud. And that's at 16 watts; about 40% of what my Dual head unit is rated at. Now multiply that by 4 speakers, gaining another 3 decibels per speaker, and your at around 108-112 decibels, depending on other factors. Now you can push it 32 watts, which is probably where it will start to show noticeable distortion, but you'll only get a 3.1 decibel increase for doubling the power.
5) If you knew about speakers and sound you would know that the bulk of the power used is to produce bass notes, not mids and highs. So, if you set things up to where the door speakers aren't having to carry much of the bass, they will actually use much less power. The kind of power levels that can be relatively cleanly supplied by all but the crappiest of head units.
6) If you also knew more about speakers, you would know that there are two kinds of distortion. Signal distortion and mechanical distortion. I don't give a crap if you have the cleanest signal in the world; if you throw too much power at a speaker that isn't designed or installed in a manner to handle it, it will sound like garbage. The enclosure that they are in plays a role in controlling cone movement. I.E. it works as a "spring" in concert with the surround and spider. Putting a speaker in an enclosure with little to no sealed air space (like a Cherokee door) means that the cone will move more on a given amount of power, and it will also produce less bass because of the lack of reinforcing harmonics from the enclosure. Throwing more wattage at it will get you a tad more bass, but it makes the cone move much more to get it louder, but it will also cause it to be closer to or at it's point of max excursion. THAT is what ruins surrounds and voicecoils more often than actual signal distortion. And THAT is what I was referring to when I talked about overpowering them.
Your comment that if I knew anything I'd know how to set the crossover on the amp for mids and highs to go with the sub is misleading, yet further proves my point. If you buy a separate amp for the mids and highs, and then set the crossover at 100Hz or up, you're not really using much of the available power of the amp. In other words, you could power them with the head unit, and as I mentioned before, just turn the bass down on it. Then, adjust the amps output and crossover to pick up where you left off with the door speakers. Now, if the man wants to start entering car stereo competitions for sound quality, then yeah, use separate amps for everything, build custom crossovers, Dynamat everything, make use of a 40 band parametric equalizer, and tweak the crap out of it. But that's not what he is doing, and there are untold millions of cars that have systems that sound fine on nothing more than what power is built into the stock head unit.
The man has a tight budget. I'm trying to help him get the most on what he has available. If you want to insist that he buy an amp for the door speakers, instead of investing what few dollars he has in any decent sub and a simple bridgeable 2channel amp, thus taking the load off the head unit and door speakers, well then, that's your prerogative.
I stand by my earlier advice, in no small part from my years of past experience, my recent audio/video/home theater projects for work, the fact that my daily driver has a system set up exactly as I've recommended, the fact that I love the way it sounds (even though I'm not shooting for audiophile-level in a Cherokee), and the fact that other people comment on how good it sounds. You may have used Eclipse for years, but that doesn't mean you actually know anything. What other credentials do you have to offer? Read a few books and do it for a living and we'll talk. I'm not trying to be a tool, but you basically ripped me for no reason, and tried to say that the information I gave was misleading. It's not. There is more than one way to skin this cat, and I gave the advice that best suited the OP's immediate needs, desires, and budget.
Nobody has to take my advice. I've got no skin it, But I think if people read my many posts on this topic, they'll find I'm a bit more knowledgeable then the average dude who only has "Fosgate rocks!" for detailed advice.
For further enlightenment, try reading the following. I have.
The Car Stereo Cookbook - Mark Rumreich
Building Speaker Systems - Gordan McComb
Advanced Speaker Systems - Ray Alden
03-23-2013, 11:55 PM
#32
CF Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Houston Tx.
Posts: 2,203
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Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Mac's right, spend the $$ on a sub and 2 ch. amp, (cheaper than a mono block amp), this will relieve the door speakers of having to provide bass and they will sound good enough with a high powered head unit, (200 watts).
I have a 50x4 Pioneer head unit powering my four 5 1/4 speakers.
About $150 for the head unit and $100 for the 4 Alpine speakers.
A $60, 350 watt Kenwood 2 ch. amp from Amazon powers a $50 Rockford Fosgate sub, $25 for a small .70 ft. sub box and I'm rockin for about $400, (Did the install myself).
I have a 50x4 Pioneer head unit powering my four 5 1/4 speakers.
About $150 for the head unit and $100 for the 4 Alpine speakers.
A $60, 350 watt Kenwood 2 ch. amp from Amazon powers a $50 Rockford Fosgate sub, $25 for a small .70 ft. sub box and I'm rockin for about $400, (Did the install myself).
03-24-2013, 12:19 AM
#33
Thanks for singling me out.....Soooo, here we go. I see you say you know how to setup a system properly. Then you say you have a Dual headunit PUSHING 40w to your Polks? You believe its 40? How about 15w of "dirty" power going to your Polks just waiting to burn the voice coil up after some long periods of over distorted underpowered signal......That's where the amp comes into play. And its not to overpower them as you started in your decibel comparison but to get good clean power to the speakers. Not to mention IF you know how to setup a system, you will know how to set the crossover on the amp for the mids and highs to go along with the sub.
I by no means am trying to say you cant run your door and rear mids with the headunit. I actually do it for now and a lot of people do it. But I find that your post has alittle misinformation and the fact you tried to single me out I just had to post.......
I by no means am trying to say you cant run your door and rear mids with the headunit. I actually do it for now and a lot of people do it. But I find that your post has alittle misinformation and the fact you tried to single me out I just had to post.......
03-24-2013, 08:01 AM
#35
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: columbia, pa
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Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
1) I didn't single you out. I actually had to go back through this thread and find your post because I didn't remember it. Your post was very short, and you kinda just reiterated thing others had already said. So, if you feel you were singled out, that's on you, not me. I didn't even have you in mind when I posted.
Now that that is out of the way...
2) I never said I had a Dual head unit "pushing 40w to" my Polks, to use your words. What I said was that I have a Dual 40 watt per channel head unit pushing my Polks. Quite different. I never once claimed that I was actually using (or even expecting to get) a full 40 watts to each channel. I just said that I was using a 40 watt per channel radio to push the speakers. Just like one might use a 25 horsepower lawn tractor to mow their lawn, even though the full 25 horses is not used and rarely needed. My XJ has 190 horsepower, but I don't use (or even need) all of it all the time;almost never actually.
3) Your assertion that the wattage ratings on head units "basically means nothing" is a blanket statement that, well.. basically means nothing. There are some manufacturers that grossly over rate their power output, or rate them at levels beyond the realms of reasonable distortion, but to say that it is meaningless is just stupid. Using that logic, you can say the same thing about wattage ratings on amplifiers. Why are they somehow immune from advertizing B.S.? If you're going to trust the ratings on a Kenwood amp, why not trust them on a Kenwood radio? Or at least realize that they do provide a guideline. And let's not forget that many manufacturers have their products officially rated by one or several independent agencies. Is that meaningless too? Or the fact that many of the internal components are a commodity and made by the same 3-5 companies in China or Japan, and everyone is using many of those parts in their products? Or the fact that we've had the advent of smaller, more powerful Class D amps utilized in head units, which, while arguably not as good on sound quality as Class A or AB amps, can hold their own in most non-audiophile situations, and put out pretty clean signal at higher power levels.
4) If YOU knew anything about how these systems work, or had bothered to read my other posts, you would know that at typical listening levels, you're only putting out fractions of a watt to a few watts per channel. Even at higher levels, you're not using as much power as you think. And it's nominal, not constant. A speaker with an SPL of 89db at 1 watt / 1 meter will output 89db with just one watt of power. At two watts it puts out 92.1db. At 4 watts it puts out 95.2, at 8 watts it's 98.3, and at 16 watts it's 101.4 decibels. That's what an electric steel cut-off saw sounds like from 2 feet away. Effing loud. And that's at 16 watts; about 40% of what my Dual head unit is rated at. Now multiply that by 4 speakers, gaining another 3 decibels per speaker, and your at around 108-112 decibels, depending on other factors. Now you can push it 32 watts, which is probably where it will start to show noticeable distortion, but you'll only get a 3.1 decibel increase for doubling the power.
5) If you knew about speakers and sound you would know that the bulk of the power used is to produce bass notes, not mids and highs. So, if you set things up to where the door speakers aren't having to carry much of the bass, they will actually use much less power. The kind of power levels that can be relatively cleanly supplied by all but the crappiest of head units.
6) If you also knew more about speakers, you would know that there are two kinds of distortion. Signal distortion and mechanical distortion. I don't give a crap if you have the cleanest signal in the world; if you throw too much power at a speaker that isn't designed or installed in a manner to handle it, it will sound like garbage. The enclosure that they are in plays a role in controlling cone movement. I.E. it works as a "spring" in concert with the surround and spider. Putting a speaker in an enclosure with little to no sealed air space (like a Cherokee door) means that the cone will move more on a given amount of power, and it will also produce less bass because of the lack of reinforcing harmonics from the enclosure. Throwing more wattage at it will get you a tad more bass, but it makes the cone move much more to get it louder, but it will also cause it to be closer to or at it's point of max excursion. THAT is what ruins surrounds and voicecoils more often than actual signal distortion. And THAT is what I was referring to when I talked about overpowering them.
Your comment that if I knew anything I'd know how to set the crossover on the amp for mids and highs to go with the sub is misleading, yet further proves my point. If you buy a separate amp for the mids and highs, and then set the crossover at 100Hz or up, you're not really using much of the available power of the amp. In other words, you could power them with the head unit, and as I mentioned before, just turn the bass down on it. Then, adjust the amps output and crossover to pick up where you left off with the door speakers. Now, if the man wants to start entering car stereo competitions for sound quality, then yeah, use separate amps for everything, build custom crossovers, Dynamat everything, make use of a 40 band parametric equalizer, and tweak the crap out of it. But that's not what he is doing, and there are untold millions of cars that have systems that sound fine on nothing more than what power is built into the stock head unit.
The man has a tight budget. I'm trying to help him get the most on what he has available. If you want to insist that he buy an amp for the door speakers, instead of investing what few dollars he has in any decent sub and a simple bridgeable 2channel amp, thus taking the load off the head unit and door speakers, well then, that's your prerogative.
I stand by my earlier advice, in no small part from my years of past experience, my recent audio/video/home theater projects for work, the fact that my daily driver has a system set up exactly as I've recommended, the fact that I love the way it sounds (even though I'm not shooting for audiophile-level in a Cherokee), and the fact that other people comment on how good it sounds. You may have used Eclipse for years, but that doesn't mean you actually know anything. What other credentials do you have to offer? Read a few books and do it for a living and we'll talk. I'm not trying to be a tool, but you basically ripped me for no reason, and tried to say that the information I gave was misleading. It's not. There is more than one way to skin this cat, and I gave the advice that best suited the OP's immediate needs, desires, and budget.
Nobody has to take my advice. I've got no skin it, But I think if people read my many posts on this topic, they'll find I'm a bit more knowledgeable then the average dude who only has "Fosgate rocks!" for detailed advice.
For further enlightenment, try reading the following. I have.
The Car Stereo Cookbook - Mark Rumreich
Building Speaker Systems - Gordan McComb
Advanced Speaker Systems - Ray Alden
Now that that is out of the way...
2) I never said I had a Dual head unit "pushing 40w to" my Polks, to use your words. What I said was that I have a Dual 40 watt per channel head unit pushing my Polks. Quite different. I never once claimed that I was actually using (or even expecting to get) a full 40 watts to each channel. I just said that I was using a 40 watt per channel radio to push the speakers. Just like one might use a 25 horsepower lawn tractor to mow their lawn, even though the full 25 horses is not used and rarely needed. My XJ has 190 horsepower, but I don't use (or even need) all of it all the time;almost never actually.
3) Your assertion that the wattage ratings on head units "basically means nothing" is a blanket statement that, well.. basically means nothing. There are some manufacturers that grossly over rate their power output, or rate them at levels beyond the realms of reasonable distortion, but to say that it is meaningless is just stupid. Using that logic, you can say the same thing about wattage ratings on amplifiers. Why are they somehow immune from advertizing B.S.? If you're going to trust the ratings on a Kenwood amp, why not trust them on a Kenwood radio? Or at least realize that they do provide a guideline. And let's not forget that many manufacturers have their products officially rated by one or several independent agencies. Is that meaningless too? Or the fact that many of the internal components are a commodity and made by the same 3-5 companies in China or Japan, and everyone is using many of those parts in their products? Or the fact that we've had the advent of smaller, more powerful Class D amps utilized in head units, which, while arguably not as good on sound quality as Class A or AB amps, can hold their own in most non-audiophile situations, and put out pretty clean signal at higher power levels.
4) If YOU knew anything about how these systems work, or had bothered to read my other posts, you would know that at typical listening levels, you're only putting out fractions of a watt to a few watts per channel. Even at higher levels, you're not using as much power as you think. And it's nominal, not constant. A speaker with an SPL of 89db at 1 watt / 1 meter will output 89db with just one watt of power. At two watts it puts out 92.1db. At 4 watts it puts out 95.2, at 8 watts it's 98.3, and at 16 watts it's 101.4 decibels. That's what an electric steel cut-off saw sounds like from 2 feet away. Effing loud. And that's at 16 watts; about 40% of what my Dual head unit is rated at. Now multiply that by 4 speakers, gaining another 3 decibels per speaker, and your at around 108-112 decibels, depending on other factors. Now you can push it 32 watts, which is probably where it will start to show noticeable distortion, but you'll only get a 3.1 decibel increase for doubling the power.
5) If you knew about speakers and sound you would know that the bulk of the power used is to produce bass notes, not mids and highs. So, if you set things up to where the door speakers aren't having to carry much of the bass, they will actually use much less power. The kind of power levels that can be relatively cleanly supplied by all but the crappiest of head units.
6) If you also knew more about speakers, you would know that there are two kinds of distortion. Signal distortion and mechanical distortion. I don't give a crap if you have the cleanest signal in the world; if you throw too much power at a speaker that isn't designed or installed in a manner to handle it, it will sound like garbage. The enclosure that they are in plays a role in controlling cone movement. I.E. it works as a "spring" in concert with the surround and spider. Putting a speaker in an enclosure with little to no sealed air space (like a Cherokee door) means that the cone will move more on a given amount of power, and it will also produce less bass because of the lack of reinforcing harmonics from the enclosure. Throwing more wattage at it will get you a tad more bass, but it makes the cone move much more to get it louder, but it will also cause it to be closer to or at it's point of max excursion. THAT is what ruins surrounds and voicecoils more often than actual signal distortion. And THAT is what I was referring to when I talked about overpowering them.
Your comment that if I knew anything I'd know how to set the crossover on the amp for mids and highs to go with the sub is misleading, yet further proves my point. If you buy a separate amp for the mids and highs, and then set the crossover at 100Hz or up, you're not really using much of the available power of the amp. In other words, you could power them with the head unit, and as I mentioned before, just turn the bass down on it. Then, adjust the amps output and crossover to pick up where you left off with the door speakers. Now, if the man wants to start entering car stereo competitions for sound quality, then yeah, use separate amps for everything, build custom crossovers, Dynamat everything, make use of a 40 band parametric equalizer, and tweak the crap out of it. But that's not what he is doing, and there are untold millions of cars that have systems that sound fine on nothing more than what power is built into the stock head unit.
The man has a tight budget. I'm trying to help him get the most on what he has available. If you want to insist that he buy an amp for the door speakers, instead of investing what few dollars he has in any decent sub and a simple bridgeable 2channel amp, thus taking the load off the head unit and door speakers, well then, that's your prerogative.
I stand by my earlier advice, in no small part from my years of past experience, my recent audio/video/home theater projects for work, the fact that my daily driver has a system set up exactly as I've recommended, the fact that I love the way it sounds (even though I'm not shooting for audiophile-level in a Cherokee), and the fact that other people comment on how good it sounds. You may have used Eclipse for years, but that doesn't mean you actually know anything. What other credentials do you have to offer? Read a few books and do it for a living and we'll talk. I'm not trying to be a tool, but you basically ripped me for no reason, and tried to say that the information I gave was misleading. It's not. There is more than one way to skin this cat, and I gave the advice that best suited the OP's immediate needs, desires, and budget.
Nobody has to take my advice. I've got no skin it, But I think if people read my many posts on this topic, they'll find I'm a bit more knowledgeable then the average dude who only has "Fosgate rocks!" for detailed advice.
For further enlightenment, try reading the following. I have.
The Car Stereo Cookbook - Mark Rumreich
Building Speaker Systems - Gordan McComb
Advanced Speaker Systems - Ray Alden
The OP asked what headunit, I replyed Eclipse. My reply is just my .02 on what has worked for me over the years. And added that an amp would help.
03-24-2013, 08:14 AM
#37
Junior Member
Are you suggesting that at any db level it requires a double in power to jump up 3.1 db?
Sure, once you get up into the 170 db range it requires a double in power...
You must have never seen the db scale.
Also, any self proclaimed 'Stereo God' that runs a Dual head unit deserves no respect from me.
03-24-2013, 08:18 AM
#38
Junior Member
And I do have to say that anyone who doesn't suggest an amp for mid's and high's has obviously never ran an amp.
I can honestly say that I've never met an installer that suggests to just run the mids straight from the headunit.
Sure, it works just fine but in comparison sounds like complete ****.
I can honestly say that I've never met an installer that suggests to just run the mids straight from the headunit.
Sure, it works just fine but in comparison sounds like complete ****.
03-24-2013, 08:34 AM
#40
Junior Member
03-24-2013, 09:19 AM
#44
Junior Member
03-24-2013, 11:30 AM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Arlington, Texas
Posts: 864
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Received 4 Likes
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4 Posts
Year: 1998
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Speakers don't "need" any particular amount of power. As I've stated several times, when you are riding around in your Jeep listening to the radio at "normal" volume levels (about as loud as a typical conversation) you're only using fractions of a watt to a few watts in each speaker.
One of the single biggest misconceptions I see is how many people think that you have to have an amp that puts out as much power (or) more than what the max rating on the speaker is.
And just about any decent head unit can put out a relatively distortion free signal at anything up to about 12-15 watts per channel.
One of the single biggest misconceptions I see is how many people think that you have to have an amp that puts out as much power (or) more than what the max rating on the speaker is.
And just about any decent head unit can put out a relatively distortion free signal at anything up to about 12-15 watts per channel.