dorth

I have a 4.0l 94 JGC which refused to start after sitting for a few days in cold (32F-ish) weather. It cranked fine but just seemed to give no indication of wanting to fire. Since I'd been nursing the 6 y.o. battery along for a while I went ahead and replaced it - unfortunately to no avail. I tried to jump start it as well, but no dice.

Started to check for spark and found the lead from the coil to the distributor was badly corroded at the coil. While trying to clean the terminal clip, the wire disintegrated. Got a NAPA replacement (8mm was all they had whereas mine was a 7mm), cleaned off the coil with a wire brush and contact cleaner. I confirmed a strong blue spark from the new cable to the distributor top, and then resumed cranking. Actually sounded like it "wanted" to start and got a stumble or two, but it never did catch.

I've wheeled it into the garage to warm up a bit (45F in the garage) and will try again tomorrow.

How would I go about verifying that I'm getting fuel? I had to replace the fuel pump about two years ago and can definitely hear it prime and also hear the relay under the hood. I'm not out of gas (good thought though!)

I'm going to crack the distributor cap next and check the rotor condition but given the sudden nature of the problem, I'm not confident that's the issue.

What keeps bouncing around in my mind is the possibility of a timiing chain jump. I do have a timing light but not sure that there are markings anywhere to verify this. I don't have a factory service manual - just a Chilton guide.

One more item is that I do have a cracked exhaust collector up near the back of the engine where it goes 2-into-1 in front of the cat and o2 sensor. This makes for rough running when cold and I suspect, confuses the o2 sensor. But again, this was a pre-existing condition, so not sure why the sudden change of heart with the old girl.

Any thoughts on what might be wrong and how I might go about confirming that short of towing it in for service? I've got 150,000 miles on the clock and am not going to dump much more money into her.

Thanks much,

Dave O

tsconver

Dave

The computer should ignore all of the sensors at cold start so the O2 sensor should not be a factor.

Any codes stored?

Could be your Crank position sensor. Also there is a cam position sensor in the distributor that could have went sour. Again both should show up as codes.

As far as timing chain it should run if it just jumped a tooth. I doubt that is the problem.

If the fuel pump is running you can check for fuel at the fuel rail. Should be a covered shrader valve on the rail, see if there is fuel there or better yet put a pressure gauge on it and see what the pressure is.

If your coil wire was bad, I would replace all the wires and why not do a good tune up and get plugs, distributor and rotor.

OverlandZJ

Hmmm...

I was going to say ECM up until you mentioned spark and hearing the relay click. ZJ's are known for this.. espescially in colder weather.

You say it wanted to start now after the wire replacement, i'm wondering if it was flooded?

dorth

Just 12 (battery disconnected in last 50 starts). Unfortunately I did not check for codes prior to removing and replacing the battery. I assume that disconnecting the battery for a several hours clears all the codes?

Will these codes get set even if the engine hasn't started? Seems like they should, but figured I'd ask.

Good deal.

Check. Got fuel at the rail.

Yes, this is always good advice [hanging head in shame.] However, the coil end of the wire was the only connector which showed any corrosion, and it was significant. I think I broke the connector with my hamfisted cleaning efforts. I have replaced the wires at least once before, so at least they're not original! :-)

I did pop the distributor cap and cleaned the rotor and also the plug contacts up as there was some of that white crap corrosion on a few of them. Unfortunately still no joy, although it seemed as if it came *really* close to "catching" and starting this time. It's been thawing out in the garage for a few hours, so maybe the babying will encourage her to light back up.

Thanks for all the excellent advice and suggestions. Let me know if you think of anything else.

Dave O

P.S. I noticed when checking engine codes that the "O/D" overdrive indicator was also flashing. I got a "5" "5" from it - perhaps an "end of codes" indication for the transmission computer. Or maybe just a coincidence.

dorth

Well, if it was flooded, it's certainly had time sit for many hours since trying to last start. Time for a dumb question - can you flood an EFI (multi-port FI) engine? I've never used the gas pedal when starting it, but maybe the computer would flood it just the same. It certainly didn't smell flooded, but again, with MFI, would I ever smell it?

Thanks for the post.

Dave O

dorth

Since I was still unable to start the beast I figured I would follow the spark down the line and check at the plug. Upon pulling the first plug (#2) it was easy to see that the plug was horribly fouled and carbon loaded - to the point that the electrode was bonded to ground. 3 of the 6 were in similarly dismal shape. The back three cylinders were somewhat better, but still pretty bad - basically beyond a simple cleaning.

The plugs, wires and rotor cap that I had "recently" replaced turned out to be 8 years and about 85,000 miles old. Glad I write these things down! :-)
So new plugs, new wires, new cap and rotor, and I'll see how she does tonight.

Dave O

dorth

Well, 6 new plugs, a new cap and rotor did not fix the problem. Drat. That's exactly what I said when it didn't start - really! :-0

If anyone has any additional thoughts or things to check, I'm all ears. Otherwise I'll have to push it over to a mechanic - or perhaps down the hill and over the cliff.

A useful link (from another post in this forum) was helpful, so I'll repeat it here.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101119

Dave O

tsconver

What have you done so far?

New wires, cap, dist, plugs?

Confirmed fuel at the fuel rail?

Can you hear injectors pulsing, have someone try starting it and place your ear on the injectors using a screwdriver as a listening device?

Compression check?

Spark at the spark plugs, take them out and ground them and crank it over or get one of those inductive probes and have some one crank it while you test each wire.

Crank it over with the distributor cap off, does the rotor turn?

Starting fluid?

Try disconnecting the cat from teh exhaust header, plugged cats do crazy stuff?

Swap fuel pump ASD relay with the AC compressor one in the under hood fuse box.

If you have fuel, spark and air it should run, if not then maybe timing is off and that could be crank shaft or cam shaft position sensor.

Check engine codes.

dorth

I was getting ready to throw in the towel, but thanks to your encouragement, I stuck with it and tonight SHE STARTED!!!

I'd gone through much of the above suggestions (aside from pulling the CAT - although I did put my hand near the exhaust while cranking and felt it blowing) and was going to call it quits after a shots of starting fluid. The comment about "is it flooded?" was still sitting buzzing around in my head so I got in and stomped the accelerator to the floor and it definitely "caught" for a few revolutions and then died. I primed it with some more starting fluid and tried it again - it was rough as hell but was briefly running. One last shot and she lit for good!

I was too nervous to take my foot off the gas but I finally let it settle down to a very smooth idle (all those new parts paid off!) and I took it for a little spin. Ran just great. I let it warm all the way up before bringing her back to roost in the garage for the night. I'm hopeful that tomorrow morning she'll fire right back up.

So THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, for the encouragement.

And just for completeness sake, I'll cover these questions so the thread contains a full reckoning.

> What have you done so far?
> New wires, cap, dist, plugs?

Correct. All new. All carefully installed and double checked.

> Confirmed fuel at the fuel rail?

Only by depressing the shraeder valve with a paper towel (i.e. no pressure test)

> Can you hear injectors pulsing, have someone try starting
> it and place your ear on the injectors using a screwdriver
> as a listening device?

I could hear two quick clicks from the front injector at what I deemed to be an appropriate interval. Can't say as I'd ever listened to one before so I wasn't sure what I was listening for. My wife sure thought I'd lost it with that screwdriver in my ear though. :-)

> Compression check?

I kind of wimped out on this one because I wasn't sure how valid it would be on a cold engine other than to verify there was indeed compression. I took out the #2 plug, pulled the fuel pump fuse, and was able to get 100psi on a cold engine with all the other plugs in place.

> Spark at the spark plugs, take them out and ground them and crank
> it over or get one of those inductive probes and have some one crank
> it while you test each wire.

I didn't test each plug/wire, but I did check the #2 plug which gave a nice bright spark.

> Crank it over with the distributor cap off, does the rotor turn?

I figured since the plug was firing that my rotor was turning, so I dispensed with this test as well.

> Starting fluid?

Yes. Not 100% sure this was the cure to get it kicked over or if it was putting the accelerator to the floor. Certainly a combination of both was when it started.

> Try disconnecting the cat from teh exhaust header, plugged cats
> do crazy stuff?

This looked to be a job which would involve a lot of pounding and cursing. I put my hand in front of the exhaust and had my wife crank it over - I felt a lot of air moving so I called it good. I did loosen the front CAT clamp and beat on it for a bit, but that sucker would not budge.

> Swap fuel pump ASD relay with the AC compressor one in
> the under hood fuse box.

Since I'd done the fuel pump 2 years ago, I've keyed in on the relay sound and fuel pump motor running, so I felt confident that I was getting fuel pressure to the rail.

> If you have fuel, spark and air it should run

This was the confidence that I needed to keep going.

> if not then maybe timing is off and that could be crank
> shaft or cam shaft position sensor.

> Check engine codes.

Just 12 (battery disconnected in last 50 starts) and 55 (end of codes).

Thanks again for your help.

Dave O (fellow Kawasaki owner, but just a little pansie 9r)

RRAM

glad to hear you got it running. I suppose if flooding was the problem it was becuase of poor spark. I have had fuel injected vehicles do that before. Had to hold my foot to the floor to get them to go. Seems when its cold the computer dumps lots of raw fuel in the cylinders, and does not open the throat. Just like running a chokes and giving it a couple pumps first. Thats from back in the old days.