chrisser

New to the forums and new to the world of Jeeps/Cherokees.

This'll be a little long, sorry for that.

We have some property in rural WV (live in Cleveland OH).

The trail in is rough, although relatively smooth, but our 4x4 FS Sierra pickup gets us in and out OK. But we basically own a valley so it's a steep climb in and back out.

When it rains, the trail gets very slick. This summer, I tried to drive out and basically stalled it with all four wheels spinning. In itself, that wouldn't have been so bad, but as we tried to backup back down the hill the truck wanted to fishtail on me. We almost lost it over the edge of a hill along the trail. Luckily (?), we ran sidways into a tree that kept us on the trail. Nice big dent in the fender and door reminds me of that day on a daily basis.

Anyhow, this is going to be a continuing problem due to the type of soil we have. I gave it a lot of thought, posted on some boards and came to the conclusion that the real problem is that out truck has a large (5.3) heavy V8 sitting on top of the front axle, and almost no weight out back. When it's pointed uphill, the physics are such that the front end would prefer to be downhill faster than the rear. Now, I could compensate with better tires, gravel, some chains, maybe even a winch or some retaining posts, but there's no real way around the physics and, sooner or later, conditions are going to be slick and I'll be right back where I am now.

We'd also like to move down there permanently, but the driveway makes that impossible - I couldn't reliably get to to work if, after every rain, we'd basically be trapped until the ground firmed up. There's no way I'd even a attempt a fast run up that hill knowing that, if I didn't make it, I was going to fishtail over the edge and, the higher up I got before it spun the tires, the farther down over the edge I'd go if I couldn't control the rig.

So I've been thinking of building myself kind of a combination trail/commuter vehicle. My concept was to use the front and rear straight live axles out of a Cherokee, along with the transfer case and AX-15, get a Dakota bellhousing, and then mate that up to something from the GM 60degree v6 bellhousing line - probably a 3800, or maybe a Cadillac 4.9. I'm very familiar with GM engines and computers. The key difference would be that I'd mount the engine behind the axle with the axle centerline and crankshaft centerline almost at the same level - as low as I could get it without endangering the oil pan, and clocking the transfer case as required. This would considerably lower the center of gravity and better distribute the weight over all four wheels. I'd end up with a long hood - almost something that had the layout of a 4wd hotrod, but without being as low to the ground. Then I'd build a basic fiberglass body up top - whatever fits the resulting chassis. I wan't everything above the chassis to be as bare bones and lightweight as possible.

I don't need a whole lot of ground clearance - I don't think the axles would ever come close to bottoming out, but I do need 4wd and I need to get the weight down low and spread out between the axles.

I have a local u-pull-it yard, which is where I'll be getting most of the parts. In order to title this contraption, I have to make it emissions legal, which basically means the computer and controls need to match the engine and run basically standalone. With the GM engines, this is no problem.

Anyhow I haven't had any luck finding a good donor trans at the yard until this weekend, when I found a '94 with the Ax-15 and transfer case. It's mated up to the 4.0 I-6. While I could keep my original plan and get a Dakota bellhousing and GM engine, I've been thinking about maybe just taking the whole drivetrain, engine and all, and going with the 4.0. Since the donor Cherokee is complete, I could pull the whole harness and ECM along with the drivetrain, and I'd be well on my way.

Problem is, I don't know much about Jeep/Chrysler computer systems. I do have an 02 Sebring, so I have a little familiarity that may transfer.

So, I guess my question for you guys is, what what I need to make this Cherokee drivetrain essentially standalone on my project vehicle and comply with emissions testing?

I'm assuming the ECM and wiring harness, with all the sensors intact would be the first step. Is there some sort of Body Control, Climate Control, or ABS type module that needs to be there for the ECM to play nice by itself? Anything else I'd need to know?

wiggles

Seems kinda cool but also seem like more work than needed when you could just buy a Cherokee put some new mud tires on it and be good to go

BRN2KL

WOW! You have put some thought into this project! As far as the ECM playing nice by itself, I dont know of any climate control or body control modules that would be required. I know that Jeep at some point around 94 added ABS brakes. I am unsure of the year. I believe the ABS module is under the back seat on the drivers side. I dont know if the ABS module would effect the ECM or not.

For the terrain and situation that you are describing, have you thought about something like a tracked vehicle? Im kidding man. A Cherokee with some mud tires may be an easier route. Either way, if you build this lowered 4wd hot rod, post some pics.

chrisser

Thanks guys.

I had given a Cherokee some thought.

It would be a heckuva lot easier.

But I think it will suffer from the same problems as the Sierra - the engine is high off the ground and pushed forward over the front axle.

The weight distribution is better due to the short wheelbase, that also makes it more susceptible to the front end wanting to wrap itself around in slippery conditions.

The other issue I forgot to mention with the Sierra is it's heavy. When it gets really muddy, it sinks. Never gotten stuck, but have rutted up the driveway more than once. I'd like to avoid that because it just compounds the problem - when it dries, water gets rerouted and trapped making even more mud next time.

Granted, the Cherokee is a lot lighter, and wider tires would help, although on a vehicle that also needs highway travel, there's a point where you're trading a benefit in one environment for a potential problem in the other.

I believe the best approach is to get the weight low and distributed, and then wrap that in a lightweight package. If that still doesn't work, then I can look for more advantages such as with different tires and sizes, but I'll have already built the best possible platform for our terrain.

BRN2KL

chrisser, to provide some alternate thought, I am going to play devils advocate.

"the engine is high off the ground and pushed forward over the front axle." This is one of your concerns. Stretching the front end of an existing platform will more evenly distribute the weight of the vehicle. This doesn't help with the elevation of the engine in relation to the ground but will change your CG. In addition, adding weigh to the rear of the vehicle change that center of gravity (CG) as well.

"...wider tires would help, although on a vehicle that also needs highway travel, there's a point where you're trading a benefit..." I agree. However, if this driveway, or goat path, is as nasty as you say, street tires are never going to be part of your final equation are they?

Have you thought about controlling the water and managing the ground to help with your desired outcome? I'm being serious. Drainage and rock would have an impact. I'm looking at this from an engineering stand point. Just tossing out ideas...

V8XJDavid

Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to smooth the hill and pave yourself a driveway?

U-BOATXJ

Pics, I really want to see this driveway. Sounds fun

mrkauffman

yeah, this must be one heck of a driveway. i, too, think itd be easier to put mud terrains or duratracs on a cherokee and call it a day, or put them on the sierra, but you still have the weight issue.

buy a samurai, put 37's on it and call it a day....blasphemy! lol jkkk

Jmb94

Of any vehicle, I think an XJ with some weight in the back is probably your best bet. Solid mud tires, some sand in the back, and maybe a rear LSD and I'll bet you would be satisfied with the results.

rzldzl

chain up

get a cat and make switchbacks

Carnutcertifies

i would have to agree with most have said. smooth the driveway bring in some gravel rent a compactor to harden the soil and control the.water flow with small ditches on either side. the ditches would act as a.berm as well if you did get into some harry situations again. also with wider mud tires you would be displacing the weight of your truck or cherokee. i would also suggest locking diffs. this would put power to all four wheels. sounds like a fire road instead of a driveway

chrisser

Thanks for the suggestions.

We do need to put some work into the driveway. However, it's about 1/2 mile from the nearest road to the valley floor below. Other than a couple sections of gentle slope, it's downhill the whole way. It's going to take a lot of gravel, probably over landscape fabric along with much drain pipe and some excavation. The nearest source of gravel is an hour away. It's not a small task or a cheap one.

I don't have a lot of pics, but here are some...

This part is an easement, so other than some grading, we can't change the slope. Not quite as steep as the photo implies, but it's also not the worst of the trail.






This doesn't show the worst of it, but the tree in the LH center of the pic that is off to the right as the trail curves to the left is what stopped us from sliding over. Around that gentle curve it's probably 35 degreees up for maybe 100' and slick as mud when it rains. I made it about 3/4 of the way up in the Sierra until all four wheels started to spin, and then we slid back down until we slid into that tree because I couldn't get the truck to go around the gentle curve. And it was just a gentle summer rain, not a soaker.



Another part of the trail:



It's some beautiful country:



We don't own the property near the road. My dilemma is, whatever vehicle or configuration is able to get me in and out is also has to be the vehicle that gets me to the nearest town or city for employment on a daily basis (somewhere between 30 and 60 minutes travel - mostly curvy state highways) , once you get to the gravel road.

wiggles

Buy a Cherokee and put some 30" mud tires on it and your good to go

THEBIGWHITEONE

lock it

Zack92MJ

Yeah put some lockers on it and from there alone your a lot better off. I would just get some m/ts 30's a locker and you'll be good to go.