Oversized Oil Filter? Few other Q's too
CF Veteran
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,237
Likes: 3
From: Northern Illinois
Year: 90
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
But... there are two formulations for many of Castrol's oils. A US version and the Euro version. The post on Bob doesn't say which this one is. From the numbers I would venture to guess its the US version.
Phos 837
Zinc 966
The Zinc level is below the 1000ppm that engine builders consider the floor for Zinc concentrations.
If I have the time I will add a bit more to this. Unfortunately,(or fortunately) I'm taking my scouts camping this weekend, and I have business trip starting Monday.
Do you hear banjos?
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,644
Likes: 6
Model: Cherokee
Senior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 889
Likes: 2
From: Detroit, MI
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Modern engines are so utterly, totally different than the 4.0 it is stunning. The alloys are different, the machining procedures, thermal expansion, dimensional tolerance stacks, EVERYTHING is different. Modern engines are so phenomenally well-designed they do not compare in any realistic way to motors from the 1960's. Putting oil engineered for a Caddilac Northstar into a tank engine...or vice versa...is a mistake. Nothing will happen immediately but you will alter the design life, of that you can be sure, and that life will be shorter.
Nobody knows more about oil and engines than the OEM that engineered and built the motor. It is worthwhile to remember that their information is "proprietary". That means secret. They do not tell anyone what the alloy content of their parts are or how they control production tolerances. There are a zillion people out their second-guessing and opinionating but the OEM ain't talking.
I just put a note on another question about Crown Vics. Ford's modular DOHC 4.6l engine that came out in the late 80's/early 90's was brilliant. 300k mile motor that got 25 mpg and made huge horsepower and diesel torque with an oil service life of 7500 miles and ran like a Swiss watch. That was amazing. Imagine what they are building today, twenty years later. Or look at the Northstar engine, of the new Hemi. By any measure, these are remarkable engines but they have little in common with an XJ motor.
I know that everyone has their own opinion - and that is good. You can't learn a thing talking to somebody that agrees with you. But you also cannot do the Wrong thing if you use the OEM's recommended oil and, better yet, their brand. Same goes for filters.
Just my 250 cents worth.
Nobody knows more about oil and engines than the OEM that engineered and built the motor. It is worthwhile to remember that their information is "proprietary". That means secret. They do not tell anyone what the alloy content of their parts are or how they control production tolerances. There are a zillion people out their second-guessing and opinionating but the OEM ain't talking.
I just put a note on another question about Crown Vics. Ford's modular DOHC 4.6l engine that came out in the late 80's/early 90's was brilliant. 300k mile motor that got 25 mpg and made huge horsepower and diesel torque with an oil service life of 7500 miles and ran like a Swiss watch. That was amazing. Imagine what they are building today, twenty years later. Or look at the Northstar engine, of the new Hemi. By any measure, these are remarkable engines but they have little in common with an XJ motor.
I know that everyone has their own opinion - and that is good. You can't learn a thing talking to somebody that agrees with you. But you also cannot do the Wrong thing if you use the OEM's recommended oil and, better yet, their brand. Same goes for filters.
Just my 250 cents worth.
CF Veteran
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,383
Likes: 5
Year: 1988 limited
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 litre
Modern engines are so utterly, totally different than the 4.0 it is stunning. The alloys are different, the machining procedures, thermal expansion, dimensional tolerance stacks, EVERYTHING is different. Modern engines are so phenomenally well-designed they do not compare in any realistic way to motors from the 1960's. Putting oil engineered for a Caddilac Northstar into a tank engine...or vice versa...is a mistake. Nothing will happen immediately but you will alter the design life, of that you can be sure, and that life will be shorter.
Nobody knows more about oil and engines than the OEM that engineered and built the motor. It is worthwhile to remember that their information is "proprietary". That means secret. They do not tell anyone what the alloy content of their parts are or how they control production tolerances. There are a zillion people out their second-guessing and opinionating but the OEM ain't talking.
I just put a note on another question about Crown Vics. Ford's modular DOHC 4.6l engine that came out in the late 80's/early 90's was brilliant. 300k mile motor that got 25 mpg and made huge horsepower and diesel torque with an oil service life of 7500 miles and ran like a Swiss watch. That was amazing. Imagine what they are building today, twenty years later. Or look at the Northstar engine, of the new Hemi. By any measure, these are remarkable engines but they have little in common with an XJ motor.
I know that everyone has their own opinion - and that is good. You can't learn a thing talking to somebody that agrees with you. But you also cannot do the Wrong thing if you use the OEM's recommended oil and, better yet, their brand. Same goes for filters.
Just my 250 cents worth.
Nobody knows more about oil and engines than the OEM that engineered and built the motor. It is worthwhile to remember that their information is "proprietary". That means secret. They do not tell anyone what the alloy content of their parts are or how they control production tolerances. There are a zillion people out their second-guessing and opinionating but the OEM ain't talking.
I just put a note on another question about Crown Vics. Ford's modular DOHC 4.6l engine that came out in the late 80's/early 90's was brilliant. 300k mile motor that got 25 mpg and made huge horsepower and diesel torque with an oil service life of 7500 miles and ran like a Swiss watch. That was amazing. Imagine what they are building today, twenty years later. Or look at the Northstar engine, of the new Hemi. By any measure, these are remarkable engines but they have little in common with an XJ motor.
I know that everyone has their own opinion - and that is good. You can't learn a thing talking to somebody that agrees with you. But you also cannot do the Wrong thing if you use the OEM's recommended oil and, better yet, their brand. Same goes for filters.
Just my 250 cents worth.
Seasoned Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 273
Likes: 1
From: Coventry, CT
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 high output, Alabama Cylinder head, 60mm bored TB
Its true that modern oils are doing away with zinc because it pollutes. However, a lot of companies that produce synthetics are making alternate additives that protect flat tappet motors. Valvoline synpower is one that comes to mind. I don't have the link, but remember reading an article about a zinc alternative in the oil that helps protect the older motors. Are there any known cam failures that have resulted from using new oils? I haven't heard of any. They may be taking the zinc out, but replacing it with something else. New synthetic oils are supposed to be the best lubricants on the market. My dads WJ 4.7L has had Valvoline synpower 5w30 in it for 2500 miles, and it still looks clear, which for his '99 is a big change. The oil used to be black by 3000 miles with Mobil 1 or Castrol synthetic.
Worse case scenario you could always add the ZDDP additive yourself.
I've been using rotella 10w30 but will probably switch to the Valvoline soon.
I read the entire article by Dr. Haas and agree with the other posters. The first number is the most important for cold start wear, but he is also dealing with race motors and modern car engines. I'd say a 0w30 would be a good oil to go with.
Worse case scenario you could always add the ZDDP additive yourself.
I've been using rotella 10w30 but will probably switch to the Valvoline soon.
I read the entire article by Dr. Haas and agree with the other posters. The first number is the most important for cold start wear, but he is also dealing with race motors and modern car engines. I'd say a 0w30 would be a good oil to go with.
"CF Moderator"
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 3
From: N.J. Shore Area
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: l6 HO
Modern engines are so utterly, totally different than the 4.0 it is stunning. The alloys are different, the machining procedures, thermal expansion, dimensional tolerance stacks, EVERYTHING is different. Modern engines are so phenomenally well-designed they do not compare in any realistic way to motors from the 1960's. Putting oil engineered for a Caddilac Northstar into a tank engine...or vice versa...is a mistake. Nothing will happen immediately but you will alter the design life, of that you can be sure, and that life will be shorter.
Nobody knows more about oil and engines than the OEM that engineered and built the motor. It is worthwhile to remember that their information is "proprietary". That means secret. They do not tell anyone what the alloy content of their parts are or how they control production tolerances. There are a zillion people out their second-guessing and opinionating but the OEM ain't talking.
I just put a note on another question about Crown Vics. Ford's modular DOHC 4.6l engine that came out in the late 80's/early 90's was brilliant. 300k mile motor that got 25 mpg and made huge horsepower and diesel torque with an oil service life of 7500 miles and ran like a Swiss watch. That was amazing. Imagine what they are building today, twenty years later. Or look at the Northstar engine, of the new Hemi. By any measure, these are remarkable engines but they have little in common with an XJ motor.
I know that everyone has their own opinion - and that is good. You can't learn a thing talking to somebody that agrees with you. But you also cannot do the Wrong thing if you use the OEM's recommended oil and, better yet, their brand. Same goes for filters.
Just my 250 cents worth.
Nobody knows more about oil and engines than the OEM that engineered and built the motor. It is worthwhile to remember that their information is "proprietary". That means secret. They do not tell anyone what the alloy content of their parts are or how they control production tolerances. There are a zillion people out their second-guessing and opinionating but the OEM ain't talking.
I just put a note on another question about Crown Vics. Ford's modular DOHC 4.6l engine that came out in the late 80's/early 90's was brilliant. 300k mile motor that got 25 mpg and made huge horsepower and diesel torque with an oil service life of 7500 miles and ran like a Swiss watch. That was amazing. Imagine what they are building today, twenty years later. Or look at the Northstar engine, of the new Hemi. By any measure, these are remarkable engines but they have little in common with an XJ motor.
I know that everyone has their own opinion - and that is good. You can't learn a thing talking to somebody that agrees with you. But you also cannot do the Wrong thing if you use the OEM's recommended oil and, better yet, their brand. Same goes for filters.
Just my 250 cents worth.
AC Delco- PF2
K&N Gold- HP-3001
Mobil 1- M1-301
Motorcraft- FL1A
Napa Gold- 1515
Purolator- L30001
WIX- 51515
Senior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 889
Likes: 2
From: Detroit, MI
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Man, I don't know - that is kind of odd. What do they recommend for the US? 10-30?
My guess...and only a guess...would be parts content. Could be climate or additive packages but I'd bet "content". Could be they build the same basic engine in a different plant with different assembly procedures, tooling, or even parts suppliers. For example, many countries have content laws that require the OEM to have a specified percentage of local parts or even specific parts. This leads to different suppliers making pistons, cams, lifters, bushings, all kinds of things. Maybe those vendors use different alloys because of what might or might NOT be available. It could even be related to the additives in the gas in different countries - that has a powerful impact on oil, I'm told.
There could be a million reasons...but the OEM will know exactly why and they are not likely to tell anyone. It could be price-point competition, too. For example, a few years back Toyota de-contented their Camry motor and pulled the roller cam and lifters and went bushings. This was price-driven, IMO, but I heard they knew it would not shorten the life of the motor below their original design life target of 200k miles. And it's not a high performance motor so the roller lifters really didn't buy them any bang for the buck. While this was going on, Ford was putting rollers into their 5.0l Mustang motor in order to steepen the ramp on the cam lobes to tweak more horsepower out of it without killing the life expectancy. It worked - it is a fabulous motor.
All hearsay, of course. Only the OEM knows for sure. It sure is fun to speculate, though.
EDIT: I meant to say that price-point can drive oil choice by changing the parts content. Roller motors sometimes use different oil than non-rollers and some motors are rollers in one country and non-roller in another. They also use different content in the same engine in the same country in the same CAR. Remember the LS6 454's? Ordinary 454 with different heads, cam, intake, carb. The OEM thinks the consumer is unaware of all this...and they are usually right...so they just make whatever recommendation they feel is correct and don't bother to explain it to anyone. In my experience, they don't tell anyone anything unless they're backed into a corner.
My guess...and only a guess...would be parts content. Could be climate or additive packages but I'd bet "content". Could be they build the same basic engine in a different plant with different assembly procedures, tooling, or even parts suppliers. For example, many countries have content laws that require the OEM to have a specified percentage of local parts or even specific parts. This leads to different suppliers making pistons, cams, lifters, bushings, all kinds of things. Maybe those vendors use different alloys because of what might or might NOT be available. It could even be related to the additives in the gas in different countries - that has a powerful impact on oil, I'm told.
There could be a million reasons...but the OEM will know exactly why and they are not likely to tell anyone. It could be price-point competition, too. For example, a few years back Toyota de-contented their Camry motor and pulled the roller cam and lifters and went bushings. This was price-driven, IMO, but I heard they knew it would not shorten the life of the motor below their original design life target of 200k miles. And it's not a high performance motor so the roller lifters really didn't buy them any bang for the buck. While this was going on, Ford was putting rollers into their 5.0l Mustang motor in order to steepen the ramp on the cam lobes to tweak more horsepower out of it without killing the life expectancy. It worked - it is a fabulous motor.
All hearsay, of course. Only the OEM knows for sure. It sure is fun to speculate, though.
EDIT: I meant to say that price-point can drive oil choice by changing the parts content. Roller motors sometimes use different oil than non-rollers and some motors are rollers in one country and non-roller in another. They also use different content in the same engine in the same country in the same CAR. Remember the LS6 454's? Ordinary 454 with different heads, cam, intake, carb. The OEM thinks the consumer is unaware of all this...and they are usually right...so they just make whatever recommendation they feel is correct and don't bother to explain it to anyone. In my experience, they don't tell anyone anything unless they're backed into a corner.
Last edited by CAEMI; Jul 16, 2010 at 09:54 AM.
CF Veteran
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,383
Likes: 5
Year: 1988 limited
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 litre
Man, I don't know - that is kind of odd. What do they recommend for the US? 10-30?
My guess...and only a guess...would be parts content. Could be climate or additive packages but I'd bet "content". Could be they build the same basic engine in a different plant with different assembly procedures, tooling, or even parts suppliers. For example, many countries have content laws that require the OEM to have a specified percentage of local parts or even specific parts. This leads to different suppliers making pistons, cams, lifters, bushings, all kinds of things. Maybe those vendors use different alloys because of what might or might NOT be available. It could even be related to the additives in the gas in different countries - that has a powerful impact on oil, I'm told.
There could be a million reasons...but the OEM will know exactly why and they are not likely to tell anyone. It could be price-point competition, too. For example, a few years back Toyota de-contented their Camry motor and pulled the roller cam and lifters and went bushings. This was price-driven, IMO, but I heard they knew it would not shorten the life of the motor below their original design life target of 200k miles. And it's not a high performance motor so the roller lifters really didn't buy them any bang for the buck. While this was going on, Ford was putting rollers into their 5.0l Mustang motor in order to steepen the ramp on the cam lobes to tweak more horsepower out of it without killing the life expectancy. It worked - it is a fabulous motor.
All hearsay, of course. Only the OEM knows for sure. It sure is fun to speculate, though.
My guess...and only a guess...would be parts content. Could be climate or additive packages but I'd bet "content". Could be they build the same basic engine in a different plant with different assembly procedures, tooling, or even parts suppliers. For example, many countries have content laws that require the OEM to have a specified percentage of local parts or even specific parts. This leads to different suppliers making pistons, cams, lifters, bushings, all kinds of things. Maybe those vendors use different alloys because of what might or might NOT be available. It could even be related to the additives in the gas in different countries - that has a powerful impact on oil, I'm told.
There could be a million reasons...but the OEM will know exactly why and they are not likely to tell anyone. It could be price-point competition, too. For example, a few years back Toyota de-contented their Camry motor and pulled the roller cam and lifters and went bushings. This was price-driven, IMO, but I heard they knew it would not shorten the life of the motor below their original design life target of 200k miles. And it's not a high performance motor so the roller lifters really didn't buy them any bang for the buck. While this was going on, Ford was putting rollers into their 5.0l Mustang motor in order to steepen the ramp on the cam lobes to tweak more horsepower out of it without killing the life expectancy. It worked - it is a fabulous motor.
All hearsay, of course. Only the OEM knows for sure. It sure is fun to speculate, though.
I'll tell you why, and it's not a guess. The reason why the same engine has different recommended oils according to the destination country is because the different countries have different anti-pollution norms and fuel cosumption targets. That is all.
"OEM..OEM.. they only know fore sure... "
Who do you think these people are? Phantoms?
There are millions of people that work in the automotive industries, people like me and other folks on here, and there are no big secrets.
Since you mentioned Toyota that is one of my employers, the first thing we do when we receive the new engine bases is remove the oil and put in another oil that is suitable for marine emission laws of the destination country, assemble the rest and ship them back to Toyota.
The same two engines (consecutive serial numbers) might go one to a vehicle driven in Russia and the other one on a boat in Australia. Who knows.
The blocks, internal components and assembly tolerances are all the same wether it's a car in USA, a truck in Japan or a boat in Dubai.
There is no recommended oil for a specific secret tolerance adoption, it's just a matter of norms.
Of course the machineing of internal components has done big strides in the last 40 years, but so has done also the oil production technology. Basically every multigrade oil sold worldwide respects the builders viscosity range request at different temperatures, to guarantee proper engine operation. The only exception is for monograde oils that don't satisfy the modern diesel common rail specs.
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 8,172
Likes: 17
From: The Republic of TEXAS
Year: 1998
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L HO
My $0.02 says if 10+ year old XJ owner's manuals were re-written to day, the mfgs would be recommending 0WXX or 5WXX motor oil with the 0WXX being preferred because 0WXX is only available today in synthetic. Jeep/Chrysler isn't going to insist on synthetic oil but you can bet they would prefer that you use it.
Last edited by djb383; Jul 16, 2010 at 11:08 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 889
Likes: 2
From: Detroit, MI
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
You really need to ease up a bit. I'm not looking to argue with you or anybody else. I am in Detroit. I don't know what Yamaha does with boat motors or what Toyota does in Europe. You're welcome to your opinion. I don't agree. Let's leave it at that.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 889
Likes: 2
From: Detroit, MI
Year: 1994
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
I buy any of the above. The only company I avoid entirely is Fram. Everything I hear about them is bad. On the other hand, everything I hear about Wix and Purolator is good. I buy them and don't worry about it.
Then again...I have no fear of mixing oils, viscosity, brands, synth or non-synth. I just don't care - the oil ain't in there long enough to worry me.
Seasoned Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Model: Cherokee
The Typical Properties for German Castrol 0w-30 says it has 0.11%wt of Zinc and 0.10%wt of phosphorus, which would be decent for even a high performance 4.0 its the higher viscosity that the Castrol 0w-30 gets to at 100degreesC. the german castrol is close to a 40 weight(12.1) at 100degrees C versus Amsoil HDD(5w-30 HeavyDutyDiesel) viscosity of 11.4 at 100degreesC.
