Older airconditioner needs upgrade to newer cooling ahhh stuff.
04-26-2017, 09:25 PM
#1
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Location: Paradise actually. Also known as Central New Mexico @ 7 K feet
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Year: 87
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 6 cylinder
Older airconditioner needs upgrade to newer cooling ahhh stuff.
Maybe it's still called freon. Feel free to let me know or move this post if I'm in the wrong area.
I was quoted 200.00 to upgrade to the newer type of coolant. Is it possible to get this done reliably somewhere at a lower price. The place I was at is very expensive, I was 56.00 to tell me my wife's battery was dead the other day. A multimeter could have done that. But his was a fancy box that beeped and clicked......
So, I just wonder how much trouble I'm in to get the AC operational again. I think the hoses, that go thru the fire wall on the passenger side, are toast.
Guess I may be grasping at straws......
Ron
I was quoted 200.00 to upgrade to the newer type of coolant. Is it possible to get this done reliably somewhere at a lower price. The place I was at is very expensive, I was 56.00 to tell me my wife's battery was dead the other day. A multimeter could have done that. But his was a fancy box that beeped and clicked......
So, I just wonder how much trouble I'm in to get the AC operational again. I think the hoses, that go thru the fire wall on the passenger side, are toast.
Guess I may be grasping at straws......
Ron
04-26-2017, 11:14 PM
#2
Senior Member
Air conditioning is expensive to have serviced in a shop. There's usually a fair amount of labor involved, which is expensive, and AC service is highly regulated which further increases costs. $200 actually sounds like a pretty good price (at least it would be around here) if it includes a proper conversion and whatever else may be needed to get it working again.
Some with older AC systems elect to use an alternative refrigerant such as Enviro-Safe which, unlike R134a, is compatible with the mineral oil that was used with R12a Freon so it's an easy drop-in replacement. A problem though is that if you do this no shop will ever want to touch your air conditioning, you'd be committing to working on it yourself. There may also be legal issues in the use of such refrigerants.
Some with older AC systems elect to use an alternative refrigerant such as Enviro-Safe which, unlike R134a, is compatible with the mineral oil that was used with R12a Freon so it's an easy drop-in replacement. A problem though is that if you do this no shop will ever want to touch your air conditioning, you'd be committing to working on it yourself. There may also be legal issues in the use of such refrigerants.
04-27-2017, 01:44 AM
#3
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Location: Paradise actually. Also known as Central New Mexico @ 7 K feet
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Thanks Rambler65 I'd jump at the chance to get a working ac system at that price. 200 is just the conversion cost. Before the conversion it was over two hundred in labor and testing w/o the cost of new hoses probably the least expensivething but I don't know.
I live in a somewhat remote area and have to do many things myself, like build our solar adobe home. Been a musician my whole life and don't know much about anything till I need it done. Sometimes I can find out enough to make a go of it.
It seems like you may have helped me a great deal. I could still get in trouble but it would be of my own making and I can live with that. If the name of the product you mention is honest it could make this comming New Mexico summer much cooler.
At your convenience sometime, What roll does the mineral oil play in the cooling cycle?. We have several old Servel refrigerators still working and they have a two component chemistry and a bunch of plumbing that keeps our food cold.
Different chemistry with amonia and something else I can't think of and have been working for 50 years with a little tweaking. That business about dying of carbon monoxide is hooey for the most part. We've had one in the house since 83 when we went off grid. They need to be installed carefully then your are fine.
Do you know if our existing system needs to be purged some how? The shop owner said thee was no refrigerant left in my system. You can see where the two hoses were leaking. I sure appreciate your help.
Ron
I live in a somewhat remote area and have to do many things myself, like build our solar adobe home. Been a musician my whole life and don't know much about anything till I need it done. Sometimes I can find out enough to make a go of it.
It seems like you may have helped me a great deal. I could still get in trouble but it would be of my own making and I can live with that. If the name of the product you mention is honest it could make this comming New Mexico summer much cooler.
At your convenience sometime, What roll does the mineral oil play in the cooling cycle?. We have several old Servel refrigerators still working and they have a two component chemistry and a bunch of plumbing that keeps our food cold.
Different chemistry with amonia and something else I can't think of and have been working for 50 years with a little tweaking. That business about dying of carbon monoxide is hooey for the most part. We've had one in the house since 83 when we went off grid. They need to be installed carefully then your are fine.
Do you know if our existing system needs to be purged some how? The shop owner said thee was no refrigerant left in my system. You can see where the two hoses were leaking. I sure appreciate your help.
Ron
04-27-2017, 09:14 AM
#4
Senior Member
Enviro-Safe, and the similar Duracool, are products that have been around for decades.
http://www.es-refrigerants.com/produ.../t/refrigerant
http://www.duracool.com/Duracool/refrigerants.html
These are hydrocarbon refrigerants, a mix of propane and isobutane. They are flammable, cheap, and easily obtained. The former is used as a rationale by government for discouraging their use. Many believe the latter two issues are the real reasons there has been controversy over their use since you're not dependent on a big chemical company's patented witch's brew. Safety record worldwide with this type of refrigerant has been excellent, you just have to use common sense (like not smoking) while working with them. If you have access to the gases you could mix your own, though I'm not certain what the ratio is. The propane does the bulk of the cooling, the isobutane is mixed in to keep head pressure down.
Legally at the federal level, the EPA has forbidden the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants for direct R12a conversions, but permit it for use in R134a systems. So if you (nudge nudge, wink wink) first install R134a and then convert to hydrocarbon you are OK at that level. They also require special fittings to be installed that pertain to the specific refrigerant, though I don't know of many who actually bother doing that. Many though will install the R134a adapters since they are superior to the old-style fittings and make it easier to hook up current-style equipment. There may also be local and state laws that regulate the use of these refrigerants. I'm not going to get into my opinion of this since politics are verboten here, I just wanted to make sure that if you or anyone else is considering converting to hydrocarbon refrigerant that you are aware of potential legalities. Also as I've said, no shop will want to touch your system if you're using alternative refrigerants.
The oil in an auto AC system really doesn't play an active part in the refrigeration cycle. It is there to lubricate the compressor and is carried by the refrigerant. (Kind of the way that lubricant is carried by the fuel in a 2-cycle gasoline engine.) That brings in the main issue with converting from R12a to R134a - the oils used in the two systems are not compatible. To do a proper R134a conversion you have flush out all of the old mineral oil and install synthetic Ester oil in its place. Badly done conversions are susceptible to the "black death" caused by the compressor grinding itself to death internally and spewing metal parts out to mix with refrigerant and oil. When this happens you have to basically replace the entire system due to contamination.
An issue with the R134a-compatible oils is that they are quite literally at least 100 times more absorbent of atmospheric moisture than the old mineral oil. Added to this the fact that R134a and moisture form acids in the AC system that wind up eating microscopic holes in metal parts such as the evaporator over time. That is why evaporator leaks are so common in R134a AC systems.
Hydrocarbon refrigerants are compatible with all oils used in AC systems. So when converting from R12a you can keep your old mineral oil and avoid oil-related problems.
Another problem with R134a is that it is less efficient than R12a and runs at higher pressures, you lose about 20% of your cooling capacity. How much this affects things depends on the vehicle being converted. On the other hand, hydrocarbon refrigerants are more efficient than R12a (you get additional cooling) and run at a bit lower pressures, which is easier on the AC system.
When you have a leak as you describe it first obviously needs to be fixed (sounds like bad hoses in your case), you need to replace the receiver/drier, and you need to pull vacuum on the system for at least 30 minutes to pull air and moisture out before refilling. Then you see if the system will hold vacuum, which gives you an indication as to whether there are any leaks. This requires a vacuum pump. Harbor Freight sells one that frequently goes on sale for under $100 that will do the job:
http://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-...ump-61245.html
You also need a gauge set for AC servicing.
http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-r134...set-60806.html
(Note: the above gauge set, and most on the market now, are set up for the fittings used in R134a systems. You can add adapters onto the fittings of your R12 system.)
So to do this stuff you do need to spend some money on tools (unless you have a place to borrow or rent from), but you'll save big on doing your own AC servicing.
I think the main thing you are going to run into if the hoses that go inside the car are bad is that you have to pretty much take out the entire dashboard to get to the evaporator where they hook up. (At least that is the case on the later XJ's, I'm not positive on an '87 model.) This would be an enormously expensive job to farm out to a shop. So if you can do it yourself you'll save a lot of money. You also might as well replace the evaporator while in there since it's 30 years old.
I like to use "Nylog" sealant on the O-ring seals that are used on the hoses. It greatly reduces the chance of leaks when putting things back together. Nylog comes in two varieties, red and blue. Red is for mineral oil, blue is for the synthetic oils used with R134a. (If converting to hydrocarbon refrigerant and retaining the mineral oil you'd use Nylog Red.)
There is a great online forum for learning about auto air conditioning here:
http://www.acsource.net/acforum/
Also there are plenty of youtube videos and other resources that can be pulled up by searching. Probably what you will want to do is study up a bit on the basics and procedures before diving into your system. There's a fair amount to it but really there is nothing that someone used to doing their own wrenching shouldn't be able to handle.
I should point out that I am in no way a professional auto AC technician. Most of what I know I learned from a long-time friend (now deceased) who was a Ford air conditioning tech for over 40 years. If I've managed to absorb just a few percent of his knowledge I'd consider myself fortunate. There are certainly others here who have experience servicing AC systems as well and probably know more specifically about the XJ than I do.
By the way, it sounds like you're living the dream being off the grid and in a remote rural area! It's the kind of thing that those of us stuck here in the Peoples' Republic of NJ can only dream of.
Feel free to PM me or ask here if there's anything else I can help with.
http://www.es-refrigerants.com/produ.../t/refrigerant
http://www.duracool.com/Duracool/refrigerants.html
These are hydrocarbon refrigerants, a mix of propane and isobutane. They are flammable, cheap, and easily obtained. The former is used as a rationale by government for discouraging their use. Many believe the latter two issues are the real reasons there has been controversy over their use since you're not dependent on a big chemical company's patented witch's brew. Safety record worldwide with this type of refrigerant has been excellent, you just have to use common sense (like not smoking) while working with them. If you have access to the gases you could mix your own, though I'm not certain what the ratio is. The propane does the bulk of the cooling, the isobutane is mixed in to keep head pressure down.
Legally at the federal level, the EPA has forbidden the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants for direct R12a conversions, but permit it for use in R134a systems. So if you (nudge nudge, wink wink) first install R134a and then convert to hydrocarbon you are OK at that level. They also require special fittings to be installed that pertain to the specific refrigerant, though I don't know of many who actually bother doing that. Many though will install the R134a adapters since they are superior to the old-style fittings and make it easier to hook up current-style equipment. There may also be local and state laws that regulate the use of these refrigerants. I'm not going to get into my opinion of this since politics are verboten here, I just wanted to make sure that if you or anyone else is considering converting to hydrocarbon refrigerant that you are aware of potential legalities. Also as I've said, no shop will want to touch your system if you're using alternative refrigerants.
The oil in an auto AC system really doesn't play an active part in the refrigeration cycle. It is there to lubricate the compressor and is carried by the refrigerant. (Kind of the way that lubricant is carried by the fuel in a 2-cycle gasoline engine.) That brings in the main issue with converting from R12a to R134a - the oils used in the two systems are not compatible. To do a proper R134a conversion you have flush out all of the old mineral oil and install synthetic Ester oil in its place. Badly done conversions are susceptible to the "black death" caused by the compressor grinding itself to death internally and spewing metal parts out to mix with refrigerant and oil. When this happens you have to basically replace the entire system due to contamination.
An issue with the R134a-compatible oils is that they are quite literally at least 100 times more absorbent of atmospheric moisture than the old mineral oil. Added to this the fact that R134a and moisture form acids in the AC system that wind up eating microscopic holes in metal parts such as the evaporator over time. That is why evaporator leaks are so common in R134a AC systems.
Hydrocarbon refrigerants are compatible with all oils used in AC systems. So when converting from R12a you can keep your old mineral oil and avoid oil-related problems.
Another problem with R134a is that it is less efficient than R12a and runs at higher pressures, you lose about 20% of your cooling capacity. How much this affects things depends on the vehicle being converted. On the other hand, hydrocarbon refrigerants are more efficient than R12a (you get additional cooling) and run at a bit lower pressures, which is easier on the AC system.
When you have a leak as you describe it first obviously needs to be fixed (sounds like bad hoses in your case), you need to replace the receiver/drier, and you need to pull vacuum on the system for at least 30 minutes to pull air and moisture out before refilling. Then you see if the system will hold vacuum, which gives you an indication as to whether there are any leaks. This requires a vacuum pump. Harbor Freight sells one that frequently goes on sale for under $100 that will do the job:
http://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-...ump-61245.html
You also need a gauge set for AC servicing.
http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-r134...set-60806.html
(Note: the above gauge set, and most on the market now, are set up for the fittings used in R134a systems. You can add adapters onto the fittings of your R12 system.)
So to do this stuff you do need to spend some money on tools (unless you have a place to borrow or rent from), but you'll save big on doing your own AC servicing.
I think the main thing you are going to run into if the hoses that go inside the car are bad is that you have to pretty much take out the entire dashboard to get to the evaporator where they hook up. (At least that is the case on the later XJ's, I'm not positive on an '87 model.) This would be an enormously expensive job to farm out to a shop. So if you can do it yourself you'll save a lot of money. You also might as well replace the evaporator while in there since it's 30 years old.
I like to use "Nylog" sealant on the O-ring seals that are used on the hoses. It greatly reduces the chance of leaks when putting things back together. Nylog comes in two varieties, red and blue. Red is for mineral oil, blue is for the synthetic oils used with R134a. (If converting to hydrocarbon refrigerant and retaining the mineral oil you'd use Nylog Red.)
There is a great online forum for learning about auto air conditioning here:
http://www.acsource.net/acforum/
Also there are plenty of youtube videos and other resources that can be pulled up by searching. Probably what you will want to do is study up a bit on the basics and procedures before diving into your system. There's a fair amount to it but really there is nothing that someone used to doing their own wrenching shouldn't be able to handle.
I should point out that I am in no way a professional auto AC technician. Most of what I know I learned from a long-time friend (now deceased) who was a Ford air conditioning tech for over 40 years. If I've managed to absorb just a few percent of his knowledge I'd consider myself fortunate. There are certainly others here who have experience servicing AC systems as well and probably know more specifically about the XJ than I do.
By the way, it sounds like you're living the dream being off the grid and in a remote rural area! It's the kind of thing that those of us stuck here in the Peoples' Republic of NJ can only dream of.
Feel free to PM me or ask here if there's anything else I can help with.
Last edited by Rambler65; 04-27-2017 at 09:25 AM.
04-27-2017, 03:55 PM
#5
Member
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Paradise actually. Also known as Central New Mexico @ 7 K feet
Posts: 138
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Year: 87
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 6 cylinder
Holy hydros ramblerman, I'll have to reread that about 5 times. Can't thank you enough for taking the time to point me in what seems to me like a good direction. The links are much appreciated. I looks like some home work is in order before jumping into this project. I'll PM you on the off topic stuff. Thanks a large amount.
Ron
Ron
04-27-2017, 04:13 PM
#6
Senior Member
You're welcome! This stuff is not rocket science by any means but it is a different set of skills and tools needed versus wrenching on the engine, drivetrain, and chassis. Some studying up on the basics is definitely a good idea before tearing into it. Also I meant to also add if you wind up taking out the dashboard as part of the repair, replace both the evaporator and the heater core. Both are old and you don't want to have to go in there twice if you don't have to.