ok. first I think it may have helped a little to disconnect the exhaust. I got it to stay running longer this time.

the jeep is in my garage at home. I don't have a scope.

It currently has the third set of plugs in it since I put the engine back in. I replaced them once with champions because I read that they were best for this jeep. then the dealership replaced them again.

I checked the fuel pressure it is 35 at rest and 40 when cranking. I have not checked it when it try's to start.

I have not tried propane but we did try shooting starting fluid down the throttle body.

I have checked the firing order probably 30 times by now, and I have tried the distributor in different positions. it is cranking now since I replaced the starter so when dad gets back I will check the timing with the timing light. I have not put a vaccuum guage on it. I don't have one but my Dad might. I will ask him next time I talk to him.

I'll let you know what I find tomorrow.

 

What I'm thinking is the plugs are wet with fuel. Every time you try to start it they just get wetter. It just gets worse and worse.
Starting fluid will only get them even wetter. Propane is dry, a gas, not a liquid - it can't make them wetter, but it will help it fire if it's been too lean.

By now the entire chamber is soaked. As soon as you put new or dry plugs in they get wet. With new or dry plugs you only have a second or two for them to fire before they "fizzle" out.

How 'bout taking them out and letting them dry off. If you have shop air blow air in the hole to help dry the chamber. Or leave them open a few hours. Dry the plugs off with a match.

I've had situations so wet I disconnected the injectors so no more wet fuel, then used dry propane to fire it up - with dry plugs. Once it ran a few moments on propane the chambers cleaned themselves enough to run on wet fuel.

Awhile back I asked you to try the towtruck driver's trick - sometimes the extra gap will help fire a wet plug. You might put something so it keeps an extra 1/4 gap in the coil wire - same idea as the "spark intensifiers" sold at county fairs. Masking tape or? works fine.

Home shop? Cool, not many electric hoists in home shops! After I sold my last repair shop i ended up with lots of tools and equipment - but no hoist. Love it!

How do lean plugs foul? - not enough fuel to fire the first firing cycle. 2nd try it has 2 shots of fuel but still not enough. 3rd try, now has 3 shots of fuel - now too much, can't fire -- total is too rich - too wet! It just gets worse and worse, wetter and wetter.

Happens the same with all cylinders, next thing ya know it won't run.
Air/fuel mixture is a fairly critical proportion, especially when trying to start. Starting is the hardest thing an engine ever does. Mixture is never right, everything is cold, no momentum etc.

A wet plug the spark doesn't jump, starting a fire. The energy just
"fizzles" down the side through the wet fuel.
Propane being dry at worst can carbon foul a plug, but it has to be burning to release the carbon. Good stuff for diagnostic purposes.

At least now uncorked the cylinders have an easier way to eject the wet fuel - no back pressure (resistance) of any kind.

 

ok that makes sense. I will have to wait a few days before I will be able to work on it again. but I will let you know what happens. thanks for the help and the explanation.

 

Why can't i see the video? ERRRR!

 

You probably should leave the plugs out while you are gone so the cylinders can dry out.

 

ok I will do that if I get some time tonight, I am not going anywhere but I have to work late for the next 10 days and I will be running all over so I will not have much time. but the 23rd I have a weeks vacation so I may do some tinkering then.

 

allow pop ups and you can deff timing issue

 

start herehttp://ezinearticles.com/?How-to-Ind...tor&id=1357018

 

Unfortunately I think that only works for factory orginal parts. Take a look at this picture. Keep in mind the rotor is pointed at #1 cylinder, see how far off the cam sensor is- not much, but it's not perfect either.

Moving it one tooth over and the rotor will not even be close to #1 cylinder and the cam sensor still won't be lined up. Other option is to line up the cam sensor with a pin and drop the distributor in, but then not only will the rotor still not point to #1 cylinder, but the mounting tang won't mount up to block either. And did you notice how the articel uses scientific terms like "just to the left" and "a bit to the right", "near" and "eyeball". When trouble like what the OP has arises, close sometimes isn't close enough.

 

thank you for that picture. I was told to use the "toothpick trick" to align the cam sensor so that the scope pattern matches and that helped me not at all. If I understand that picture those two holes should line up is that correct?

 

Does yours look like this? And short answer is yes, the hole indicated by the yellow arrow is suppose to be where the red dot is (under the off-white disk is a hole in the distributor body).

My problem has been, if I line up the holes the rotor is past the #1 cylinder and the mounting tang of the distributor will no longer line up with the engine block.

 

"just to the left on the number one terminal." ...Maybe static it's set like that as the timing can get pretty advanced by the PCM/ECU? Also, I'm bone headed enough I'd try un-pluging the knock sensor.

 

ok. now I am confused again. when I dropped it off at the dealer I was getting spark at all the plugs. now once again I can't get the
number one plug to spark. so I ran the algorithm and id says it should be in the wires, plugs cap or rotor. so I put a new cap and rotor on it. I put the timing light inductive clamp on number one I get no light. I pull the plug wire off and put an old plug in there and no light no spark. no spark on number 2, I put the inductive clamp on number three and I get a light.4, 5, 6, I get the timing light to light up. I put the coil wire directly to a plug and crank it and I get a regular spark. and I get it to light up with the timing light. it looks like I am getting no fire to number 1 and 2 plug. I tried just putting a plug in the spark plug wire and grounding it and I still can't get it to spark.


first video inductive clamp on number one




second video inductive clamp on coil wire.




man I think I am going schizophrenic. I fix one problem and come back five minutes later and it is doing it again. its like this jeep is pissed I want to fix it and it wants to be sent to the junk yard.

 

I also tried swapping and using the number 3 plug wire to the number 1 terminal and no difference. so for some reason I am not getting fire to the 1 and 2 plug wire. what could cause that?

 

There IS a camshaft position sensor test here. Interesting (to me) that 93 is by it's self. (CPS on a 90 reads (1,6)(3,4), and (2,5) off the flex-plate btw)

http://www.jeep4x4center.com/knowledge-base/index.htm 93>cherokee>ignition>diagnostics (calls for an analogue meter)