I prefer drums on the trail. More of a pita to clean but nice to have an E-brake I can trust if needed.

 

my disc have an internal drum parking break so i got the best of both but seriously the disc where probably the 2nd best upgrade right behind the hella e-code headlights

 

Here's a story and it might help you decide what to do about brakes.

I owned a TJ before my XJ. It was fitted with 33's on a 4" lift and stock brakes. I was 4wheeling in mid-PA and when that was over we decided to take the "view" route which is road that goes down for about 3 miles. It's a very beautiful road to travel on cuz the view of the forrest is amazing. But anyways...I had to use my brakes about 1/2 way down cuz the TJ was gaining speed, even in 2nd gear. (note, i have STOCK brakes that were just installed two weeks prior). As we neared the bottom, i realized my brakes were overheating and were not stopping the vehicle hardly at all. I had both feet on the brake and mashing it as hard as I could. My buddy in the YJ stopped at the bottom stop sign and I knew I was in trouble so I hit the e-brake, which didn't do anything, and then swerved to the right into traffic. Luckily I didn't hit no one and didn't roll the vehicle. I could see my buddy lookin in the rear view mirror as i was speeding towards him and you could see the fear in his eyes. At that point I realized that stock brakes with anything over 31" tires is STUPID. I spent so much $$ upgrading everything and neglected my brakes and almost paid the price for it. The next day I headed to 4wd hardware and spoke with one of the guys there who used to work for a performance shop. He said NO to drilled and YES to slotted and also recommended Hawk brake pads. So..i replaced the rear brakes with standard drums and shoes but I upgraded the front brake lines with SS and installed Powerstop slotted rotors and hawk pads. You gotta do the break in procedure which takes about 30-45 minutes so I did that and afterwards I noticed the braking improved BIG TIME. I could stop suddenly unlike before. We went back to that same trail and went home the same way and my brakes never overheated and I could stop at the bottom. I actually braked 3/4 of the way down too just for kicks. I was SOLD on that combo. There was no need to upgrade the rear to disks and I saved a bunch of $$. This is the next upgrade I'm going for and I recommend it for those who haven't upgraded your brakes. The combo may not be cheap but hey it'll save your life and others so I think it is well worth the price.

PLEASE take your brakes into consideration when you upgrade your tire size. Brakes are way more important than cosmetics, lifts, snorkels, and all that other stuff we put on. If you can't stop, you are dead.

Oh and to tell you how bad my stock brakes over heated, the rubber boots on the caliper bolts and on the bleed screw MELTED. Brakes were scorching hot!

 

that is crazy. i had something similar but not that bad i just bumped my buddy in his crawler cause i could not stop from using them going up and down hills all day. but i was only going about 2 miles per hour. i have ss-lines all around but i went disc in the rear and upgraded the front to some good pads. i may have to do the slotted rotors when i do the service next time. but i will tell you this the rear disc are giant improvement over stock. and now i can go down hills in reverse with no worries. you can do rear disc for around the same as buying new shoes drums and hardware for the rear if you go the zj rout from the jy. but i was putting in my dana 44 and wanted disc so i spent about 450 to do them.

 

i feel the need for my 2 cents... yes disc brakes are better....... but did anyone forget that the only reason that disc brakes are around is beacuse the drum brake works too well..???? i'd call it more of a fun-fact than anything but it is true, drum brakes worked soo well that they in fact worked too well and so the disc brake was created....
as for cleaningand repairs, disc brakes are way easier, just remove the 2 bolts from your caliper and then remove brakes and clean as needed..... with the drums its sometime finagle the drum off, play with the damn springs that often after a decent period of time are too rusted to live past removal (I.E. they break when you pull them off) then dick around with the pad and its support system and little tinkers here and there.... also when-ever you do a brake job the damn bleeder screws break.... even though they also break on calipers there is more grab room for your hand than just a near cell phone sized pod....

so back to the point..... if your that worried about your rear brakes then do w/e to get a disc brake setup.. if it be a kit or a 8.8 ford axle out of an explorer or how-ever else you could figure. they discs are better

 

yup unless we can go to a semi size 20 inch or so drum then the disc are better. the 10 inch diameter drums don't cut it when lifted and in the dirt or mud.

 

I don't know if I agree with the line of thinking of several folks here.


Discs win because of long term cost & servicability (is that a word?).


For sheer stopping power, drums are still king. Look at any train or truck if you want an example. Often, however, the problem is that the drums were undersized for the appliation to begin with. Usually due to economies of scale at the factory.


The XJ 44s used a 10 x 2.5 drum that I can guarantee you would stop better than any "swapped in" disc setup. To get swapped in discs to function correctly, you often need to do work to the hydraulics system. Mainly to get more fluid moving ot the back to apply the pistons with force. If you want to dig deeper ... I'm willing to bet you, that if you felt like swapping to a slightly larger wheel cylinder, you'd swear there were discs in the back of your vehicle.


Does that mean I don't like discs? Hardly. I am going to be running a set of Caddy calipers on my own Jeep (for the 2nd time). However, I am trying to caution folks that just swapping over rarely leads to more stopping power alone. Obviously, when you factor in the ease of pad changes, longer pad life, and less rotational drag --- disc brakes systems do indeed come out a winner.


Joe
EndlessMtnFab

 

You're kidding of course. That drum brakes were too good? How old are you?

Go back only to the 60's Drum brakes overheated on any decent grade, then splash thru a puddle getting one btake wet and the next brake application slews you into another lane. Simply getting them adjusted so the car would stop in a stright line was difficult at best and sometimes it could not be done at all.
Chrysler came out with "center-plane" Drum brakes that were fantastic! The trouble was even with the complex adjusting rig needed to properly adjust the things the adjustment never lasted over a few miles.

In Europe, AlFin made the biggest, baddest alloy drums ever seen and they failed to cut the mustard. In 1956 Jaguar showed up at Le Mans and blew everyone into the weeds with Disc brakes and no one ever looked back. End of story.

Except for Jeeps hanging on the side of a hill. There its nice to have drums on the rear to ease back down as most rear disc setups have a rather small parking drum.

Freakaccident has it right. Maunally adjust the rear drums to get them to work properly. The built in adjusters leave a lot tp be desired.

The single piston caliper on Jeep front ends tends to **** in the bore and jam there when panic braking and 12 feet pressing down on them won;t even slow the damn thing down. This is personel experence talking here. I now have 11" slotted rotors and 2 pot, twice as big as stock, calipers on the front of my XJ. Thats where to spend your money. On the rear adjust the drumsso tight you can't move the tire at all then loosen up so they just turn freely. You'll be good to go. assuming the shoes and drum surface are in good working order.
If its all shot look at rear discs but get some with the biggest parking brake you can find.

 

Yes.



As for everything else:

 

You just hit the nail on the head.

There is more to brakes than pressure & hydraulics. A lot of people don't seem to understand that and just throw money at them.


Drums can and do fade. But like I said .. they are often undersized for the intended application to start with. For the most part ... we are not auto cross racers where maximum repetitive stops are required.




Here ... lemme dump a gallon of butter on that 'corn. That way you can **** the info out faster and redigest it. Might learn something the 2nd time around.

Check out Fred Puhn's "Brake Handbook" for more information. Bill Ansel did a good summary article in the tech section of Pirate.

Here's a great example. There is a company that makes Caddy caliper conversions for the 14 bolt. This is the same caliper used on many other much smaller vehicles like Jeeps (with swap kits, of course). Major step down in friction material and holding ability. But for the most part ... it stops adequately because of the major reduction in unsprung weight. Those drums weigh around 65-70 lbs each. Not sure I'd put it up to daily towing use, however. Because the 14 bolt wheel cylinders are larger than normal ... there isn't as much increase in pedal travel to apply the small pistons in the caliper.

Don't get me wrong folks ... I'm not saying "Don't convert to discs." I am trying to get people to realize there are multiple approaches to a problem and just doing one part of the equation will only make things more difficult in the long run. Most of the Jeeps I'm seeing on this website could probably stop better without doing anything drastic.


Joe
EndlessMtnFab

 

this was a very informative tread. and i love the fact that i can change my pads in the rear disc by removing two bolts that alone was the winner for me. last time i did the drums it was a pain to get the drums off i have noticed an increase in stopping power though with the disc because they don't need constant adjustment like the drums. and i understand the reasoning for drums but still hate them with a passion because they will fail when really dirty or wet or muddy and that is most of what i am doing.

 

how do I know if I need new drums? I've been a mechanic in the military for 8 years but I work on tanks so not much experience with drum brakes. I know I need new discs because they have deep grooving and I'm just not even going to attempt to turn them. So that means new pads.......

So what kinda pads should I get. Are semi metallics gonna be alright? Ceramic? Help me out here.

 

I don't think anyone could argue that point.



Isn't that the purpose of these threads anyhow? To either blind everyone with your brilliance (or baffle them with your bullsh!t)?



Joe

 

i am like 50/50 i am a brillant bull ****ter at least that is what my wife says

 

Yeah. Adjust the drums at each oil change and the brakes work great. Takes 30 seconds each.

And if you have trouble getting the drums off then un-adjust them. Use two screwdrivers. One against the actuating lever and spin the wheel backwards with the other screwdriver.

Not sure what brake fade has to do with our application honestly. I don't autox my Cherokee. If you are on the brakes that much in trail situations then you need lower gears and not better brakes.

Upgrade to discs if you want. Nothing wrong with discs at all. If I trusted the ebrakes on them I would have discs.

That Ford internal drum ebrake is a joke. A buddy of mine had an 8.8 on his YJ and it failed and destroyed the rear tub when it smashed into a tree. Thank god everyone was up the hill and not behind it. The mechanism was not intended to hold that much weight on an incline.