The Debt Free Thread

Old 04-24-2018, 09:01 AM
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Spurred by a comment in another thread, I wanted to peel this one off into separate thread.

In 2004, I graduated college with $42,000 in credit cards and student loans, which was on the low-side-of-average for the time. My first job, with a masters degree in IT, was working for a bank for $29,000/yr.

I was so bad at finances, I actually used the available balance across my three credit cards as "income" some months. It was so bad, and so obvious, that my first boss once arranged for me to attend a training class in another part of the state so that the company would buy my food and gas for that week. We were paid monthly, and I had "too much month left at the end of the money." I was living about 300 miles from my family (who was also broke) so they couldn't really help me.

My sister's boyfriend gave me two Dave Ramsey cassette tapes for Christmas in 2004: Dumping Debt and Cash Flow Planning (Those links are for the 2011 CDs) and I listened to them on the 4 hour drive home.
Then I listened to them again.
Eventually, they were the only thing I listened to. I got real fired up. I got my **** together and started following the plan.

I stopped using cards entirely. I cut up all but one, which I encased an a block of ice in the freezer. It took 30 minutes of running hot water over the block to get the card out. No, I'm not kidding.
I started using cash for almost everything.
I budgeted for everything, spending all my money on paper. If I was going to go over in one area, I HAD to make it up somewhere else.

I ended up realizing that the job I got out of college (in rural Mississippi) wasn't going to cut it financially, so I started looking in Nashville. I got a job making $40,000 a year and an apartment in a really bad part of town for $600/mo. After a few months of that, I rented a house closer to the office with two friends from work, and overall it was cheaper than my apartment.

It was during that time that I bought my first XJ, a 93 police package with 160,000 miles on it for $1200. I bought it because the transmission had exploded on the car I was driving and it was cheaper to buy that XJ than it was to fix my old car.

I worked so much overtime and on-call that the company changed their policy. By early 2006 I had paid off all my credit cards. Haven't had one since.

In July of 2007, I became debt free. That's two and a half years to pay off $42,000 while making about $45,000/yr after overtime but before taxes.

I got married in June of 2008 and my wife had--wait for it--$42,000 in student loans and credit cards. I got a new job that paid a lot better. By 2010 we had paid all that off (she didn't get a paying job until September of 2008) and started looking at houses. We put 20% down on a $130,000 house in January of 2011 with a 15 year mortgage at 3.5%. That's the "allowable exception" in the Dave Plan, because it's understood that if people think they have to rent until they come up with $150,000 in cash for a house they're never going to start. Twenty percent down, 15 year mortgage, house payment that is less than 25% of your take-home pay is the criteria, so that's what we did.

I never gave Dave Ramsey a dime until after I was debt free. I had the tapes my brother in law gave me and listened to the radio show. That was it. I was sufficiently motivated by just those things.

It's hard to describe being debt free to people. There is freedom in driving an $800 car that XJ owners can probably relate to . There is definitely a peace that comes with it, even when I was still in the early stages. My wife and I fight about laundry and dirty dishes sometimes, but we never fight about money. She works because she wants to, not because she has to, and that is probably the best part of this whole thing. We have the freedom to just up and decide one day that she can be a stay at home mom and that decision would have almost no effect on our day to day lives.

I'm 8 years on the other side of being in debt, and it's awesome over here.

So I'll just close out with the baby steps:
1. Save $1000 for a starter emergency fund
2. Pay off everything but the house using the Debt Snowball
3. Finish out your emergency fund. This is 3-6 months of expenses.
4. Put 15% towards retirement
5. Fund your kids' college
6. Pay off the house
7. Build Wealth and give a bunch of it away
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Old 04-24-2018, 09:26 AM
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i have no such story. i am now 35 years old. i took to heart what my dad said - if i can’t buy it, i can’t afford it. that worked until i wanted to buy a car valued over $20k. my credit report for the last 10 years shows a mortgage, no late payments. that’s it. it really screwed me over with regard to money. example:

ignorant to the credit game i applied for a lowe’s credit card and was refused. how could this be, i wondered. my credit score was 604. that’s why. no loans or available credit REALLY ****ed me. i couldn’t get anything. just to get cable i had to agree to automatically debited payment of the bill for christ sake. i literally bring home over 3x my current living expenses, all in. doesn’t matter to anyone. they dgaf.

i discovered this last summer. so i got a credit card with a $300 limit (stand back) and now my score is almost 700. how ****ing stupid is that? pay a $1k mortgage 10 years - doesn’t matter, in fact it hurts. but you paid a $50 balance each month on your credit card for 10 months? GREAT JOB. sofaking dumb.

tldr: **** credit games and being cash only works until you need real amounts. that is all.

edit: i am debt free (sans house) and have been for over a decade. whoopty ****in doo.

Last edited by s346k; 04-24-2018 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 04-24-2018, 10:56 AM
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I started my credit history with a Texaco gas card and a Firestone tire card. When I went to buy my 67 Camaro, the bank decided my credit wasn't good enough so I had to take out a $1000 personal loan and pay that off satisfactorily before they'd give me my car loan! 3 years later I had a 720 credit score. You don't get a high score unless you owe people money and they get their interest.
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Old 04-24-2018, 11:55 AM
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I have never been in debt, I paid cash for both of my vehicles, didn't go to collage, and I am currently renting a house. I am a licensed Electrician and HVAC Technician.
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 00t444e View Post
I have never been in debt, I paid cash for both of my vehicles, didn't go to collage, and I am currently renting a house. I am a licensed Electrician and HVAC Technician.
i mean, renting is kinda sorta being in debt..kinda like a credit card, payment is due at the end of the month hahah... my parents never wanted me to rent a house. Not even an apartment."wasted money" to them...ended up just paying my sister $150 as "help" to live with her for 2 years haha
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Old 04-24-2018, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by s346k View Post
i have no such story. i am now 35 years old. i took to heart what my dad said - if i canít buy it, i canít afford it. that worked until i wanted to buy a car valued over $20k. my credit report for the last 10 years shows a mortgage, no late payments. thatís it. it really screwed me over with regard to money. example:

ignorant to the credit game i applied for a loweís credit card and was refused. how could this be, i wondered. my credit score was 604. thatís why. no loans or available credit REALLY ****ed me. i couldnít get anything. just to get cable i had to agree to automatically debited payment of the bill for christ sake. i literally bring home over 3x my current living expenses, all in. doesnít matter to anyone. they dgaf.

i discovered this last summer. so i got a credit card with a $300 limit (stand back) and now my score is almost 700. how ****ing stupid is that? pay a $1k mortgage 10 years - doesnít matter, in fact it hurts. but you paid a $50 balance each month on your credit card for 10 months? GREAT JOB. sofaking dumb.

tldr: **** credit games and being cash only works until you need real amounts. that is all.

edit: i am debt free (sans house) and have been for over a decade. whoopty ****in doo.
I rewrote this probably 4 times trying to not sound like an *******, because really I'm not trying to be an *******. I hope it worked. Some days I'm more Sheldon than Leonard and honestly I can never tell. Ask my wife

I pay cash for my cars, so I don't really have any advice for someone who wants to go deeply in debt for one. This thread probably isn't for you in that case, but I'm more than happy to show you how to get what you need without borrowing money.

"I want a 20k car right now" is not a "need" in my book, but I've been known to take things more literally than they're intended. I'm also not sure how not being allowed to owe Lowes money at 27% interest or whatever is getting "really screwed," but its possible there's something I'm missing. I also auto-debit as many bills as I can so I'm not really seeing the downside to agreeing to something that I would sign up for anyway.

Remember, getting out of debt is step two. Step three is saving up 3-6 months of expenses, which is where you accumulate the "real money" you talk about. In the 14 years I've been doing this, I've never needed the "real money" you mention and not been able to cover it out of my emergency fund (actual unexpected emergencies, like blowing a transmission or the HVAC in the house going out or a sewer line backing up requiring excavation) or with a little planning (seeing a big expense coming like a better car or a new roof or Christmas presents).

I've done this poor. I've done this single. I've done it married. With and without kids. It's a lot of work but it's WORTH IT.

If you're bringing in 3x your baseline expenses--which I am not doubting at all--you should be able to save up $20k in less than a year, right? I mean, you say your house payment is $1000, so even if that was your only expense that's $24,000 in extra income right there. It's April and you should be able to write a check for that car by February. Is my math off?

The rest of this isn't written specifically for you, s346k, but more towards the general person who is thinking about getting a 20k loan for a car and can just barely make the payments which obviously isn't your situation. So the "you" here isn't "s346k" it's the generic "you."

When I started off I was buying cars for $800-$1500. Sure they weren't sexy, or speedy, or new....but I got to where I was going just as easily in my $800 1995 neon as someone driving a brand new Prius or whatever. I didn't have air conditioning or power anything, but I also didn't have a payment.

There are two really great things about thousand-dollar-cars.
1. They have depreciated about as far as they will ever depreciate.
2. It's impossible for you to have a $1500 repair on a $1000 car. You just go buy another $1000 car and sell your old one for $300.

Now, while I did that for a couple of years, I don't drive clunkers anymore. My XJ is nice and I drive it because I love it. My previous car was a 2004 WRX STI and I had a 2001 Excursion Limited Ultimate before that. Nary a car payment to be seen! In fact, I actually made money on both of those vehicles by buying them cheap and knowing the market.

The way I did that was simple. Instead of a car payment, I put money in the bank. Start with a $1000 car. Bankrate.com says a $20,000 car loan with a 3% average rate should cost you $360/mo on a 5 year term. Take that $360 and save it. Six months later, you have $2160. Buy a $2000 car. Sell your $1000 car, because in six months you'll still be able to sell it for $1000*.

Now you have $1160 in the bank. Save your $360/mo for another 6 months.
Now you have $3320 in the bank. Buy a $3000 car, and sell your $2000 car for $2000 because in 6 months it hasn't depreciated at all. Now you have a car you can keep for a couple of YEARS and sell later, plus $2320 in the bank. A year later--two years after you've started--you have $7640 in the bank and, say, a $2500 car. You have $10,140 in assets to go towards another car.

This is almost exactly what I did.

But if you bought that $20,000 car, after two years you owe $12,358 on a car worth $12,660.

So you could be +$302 or +$10,140.

Last November we wrote a $12,000 check for a 2012 Pathfinder for the wife. Low miles, 4x4, heated leather seats, navigation, etc. They gave us $2000 for her 08 Taurus X that we paid $8000 (cash) for in 2013. We loved that Taurus X and put over 100,000 miles on it (bringing the odometer to just over 205k), but it had developed a problem with misfiring that I couldn't solve myself so we finally decided to let it go. We just wrote a check out of the car fund, and that was that.

But you can't get to that point by Thursday. It takes discipline and a long-term view. And honestly, by the time I got to the point where I could pay cash for a $20,000 car, I didn't even WANT a $20,000 car anymore. That feeling started around the $6-8,000 mark, BTW.

If I wreck my XJ on the way home tonight, I'll just write a check for another one tomorrow out of the emergency fund. Same with the wife's car.
If I lose my job tomorrow, I can spend 6 months looking for another one before we'd be forced to cut back on anything. Do you have any idea how freeing that feeling is? It's way better than factory bluetooth hands-free and a backup camera.

Originally Posted by dave1123 View Post
I started my credit history with a Texaco gas card and a Firestone tire card. When I went to buy my 67 Camaro, the bank decided my credit wasn't good enough so I had to take out a $1000 personal loan and pay that off satisfactorily before they'd give me my car loan! 3 years later I had a 720 credit score. You don't get a high score unless you owe people money and they get their interest.
Right. A credit score is a measure of your willingness to make payments on revolving credit, not a measure of your actual ability to pay.

The only time I have ever been dinged for a bad credit score is on car insurance. The insurance companies have data that says, right or wrong, that people with low credit scores are more likely to make insurance claims. Travelers raised my rates based solely on my credit score, so I fired them. Problem solved.

If I'm never going to borrow money, what do I care what FICO thinks of me? Screw those guys

*Or, heck, keep it as a spare car if you're worried about the reliability of a $2000 car. At one point when I was single I had three cars that I had cumulatively paid $2500 for.
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Old 04-24-2018, 02:26 PM
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Dave Ramsey is to credit users what AA is to alcoholics; if you can't be a responsible user, then abstinence is your only option.

Credit can a tool one uses to build wealth if used judiciously and responsibly. To the average consumer though, not really. It's really more of a convenience that you pay a fee for. Which is fine, but you have to be very disciplined with that. If you can't... Ramsey/AA it is.


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Old 04-24-2018, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wizardpc View Post

what do I care what FICO thinks of me? Screw those guys
This goes against everything all those damn guest speakers in high school and college ever told us..then again, i was dozing off and maybe probably didnt hear everything
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:21 PM
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Aside from our house we bought, my wife and I have about 15k in debt. 10K being her car loan that I told her not to get a couple years ago. I always ran on cash. Not even a debit card. I went to college and got a $300 "secured" credit card because I had like a 500 credit score. I have 2k in student loans and we took out a small loan to have the wedding she wanted. My student loan is down to a little over $800 in 2 years and the wedding loan is down to 1k in under a year. My credit is still not great, but its not terrible either.

I think its stupid the way the credit system works. It makes no sense really.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:41 PM
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eh i digress. let’s talk about not having payments on stuff.

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Old 04-24-2018, 05:44 PM
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I have made some bad choices in the past. Since 05, I have owned a brand new car and switched it out for another brand new one every 2 to 3 years. Sure it was easy to afford a car payment every month but I failed to care about the bigger picture. If I would have just stuck to having a paid off car the whole time, I would probably be $100k ahead. But I was young and dumb and didnt care about the future. Now that I am older, I get it. I wish I didnt buy my last new car back in 2015. Once that thing sells, I am going to take my losses (about $15k in 3 years!) and go back to being debt free (besides the house of course) and will not go back to ever having a car payment again.
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Old 04-24-2018, 06:33 PM
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It’s funny now that I look back on it. Had a truckin co. and a house with a new car, around 300,000 or so in debt and didn’t think twice about it. Now I’m debt free which I accomplished before really getting into the Dave Ramsey. Just wished someone would’ve sat me down when I was young and set me straight. I would be a lot better financially than I am now. The borrower is slave to the lender. Debt can destroy your life and a marriage.
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Old 04-24-2018, 09:27 PM
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I know most of the examples here are with cars, but i witnessed something today that was relevant.

i got off work early and decided to go visit a good friend of mine who owns and works at his local tractor dealership. Lots of smaller farms in our area ranging from an acre to 50. Ibwas there 2 hours and i witnessed 2 deals fall through.....brcause the 2 potential buyers had bad credit and the loan company wouldnt lend them. My buddy daid that he loses tons of deals because of peoples credit. 3 out of 5 fall through and they must hope a local bank or someone else will lend them.

now, the 2 deals i witnessed today. The buyers fill out a credit application and then wait. I talked to both. One has a kushy job at los alamos national lab. He told me he makes over 6 figures, hardly uses cards and lives cash only. Tractor was over 40k so i mean large chunk of change to use extra funds on, especially condlsodering a tractor is basically an expensive tool, so i guess i see why he was going to do payments.....he was declined because he had very minimal credit history.

2nd man was a local landscaper. Tractor he told me he wanted was smaller and wss like 25k. Je was declined to.

so i mean, i get what this thread is saying and live debt free, save, etc. But you cant ignore your credit score. There are just some instances where you cant plop down cash for everything and saving that much for something you probably wouldnt use daily really isnt logical imo.


and the thing with tractors are, they really dont depreciate much. Not anyrhing like vehicles. Used machines in good condition bring a pretty penny. My buddy has 2 old 1980 something massey Ferguson farm tractors. 2000 or so hours, no loader., and like 25 horsepower, which is small. They are priced at $8500. And he says they wont last long. He also says loaders add 3 to 5k...this is just to illustrate that the used market for tractors is crazy lol.

So if you NEED a tractor to stop using a rake and shovel on your yard and to maintain your properties alot more efficiently, would you guys be willing to have a payment? Or is cash, saving, and no debt still king? Generally curious since ibsaw this thread today and then witnessed what we are talking about here lol.
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dave1123 View Post
I started my credit history with a Texaco gas card and a Firestone tire card. When I went to buy my 67 Camaro, the bank decided my credit wasn't good enough so I had to take out a $1000 personal loan and pay that off satisfactorily before they'd give me my car loan! 3 years later I had a 720 credit score. You don't get a high score unless you owe people money and they get their interest.
I started to establish my credit rating at about age 20 by taking out a $1,000 loan every year. I didn't need it for anything specific so I started to invest in my registered retirement savings (an RRSP). It was easy to pay back over the year and it got me a break on my income taxes. The income tax rebate cheque I got back from the government more than (much more than!) paid for the interest on the loan. With that I went out and bought tools or car parts (win/win). By the time I retired I was taking out loans of up to $20,000 a year. Over a 40 or so year time frame it goes a long way toward your retirement.
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Martlor13 View Post
I know most of the examples here are with cars, but i witnessed something today that was relevant.

i got off work early and decided to go visit a good friend of mine who owns and works at his local tractor dealership. Lots of smaller farms in our area ranging from an acre to 50. Ibwas there 2 hours and i witnessed 2 deals fall through.....brcause the 2 potential buyers had bad credit and the loan company wouldnt lend them. My buddy daid that he loses tons of deals because of peoples credit. 3 out of 5 fall through and they must hope a local bank or someone else will lend them.

now, the 2 deals i witnessed today. The buyers fill out a credit application and then wait. I talked to both. One has a kushy job at los alamos national lab. He told me he makes over 6 figures, hardly uses cards and lives cash only. Tractor was over 40k so i mean large chunk of change to use extra funds on, especially condlsodering a tractor is basically an expensive tool, so i guess i see why he was going to do payments.....he was declined because he had very minimal credit history.

2nd man was a local landscaper. Tractor he told me he wanted was smaller and wss like 25k. Je was declined to.

so i mean, i get what this thread is saying and live debt free, save, etc. But you cant ignore your credit score. There are just some instances where you cant plop down cash for everything and saving that much for something you probably wouldnt use daily really isnt logical imo.


and the thing with tractors are, they really dont depreciate much. Not anyrhing like vehicles. Used machines in good condition bring a pretty penny. My buddy has 2 old 1980 something massey Ferguson farm tractors. 2000 or so hours, no loader., and like 25 horsepower, which is small. They are priced at $8500. And he says they wont last long. He also says loaders add 3 to 5k...this is just to illustrate that the used market for tractors is crazy lol.

So if you NEED a tractor to stop using a rake and shovel on your yard and to maintain your properties alot more efficiently, would you guys be willing to have a payment? Or is cash, saving, and no debt still king? Generally curious since ibsaw this thread today and then witnessed what we are talking about here lol.
It's a completely different mindset. No, I would not borrow money in those instances. The only time I would ever go in to debt would be for mortgage (following the strict criteria I laid out before), and even then I would not be happy about it.

Let's talk about your two scenarios. With the Los Alamos guy, he's just wanting a tractor to maintain his own property more efficiently, correct?

Instead of payments on equipment that he will have to maintain and operate, could he not outsource that to a landscaping company for much, much less? I admit I don't have all the details, but I feel like I have a similar situation, albeit on a smaller scale. I have a good job and large lot. I pay someone else to maintain it, ie I have a "yard guy." A lawn tractor or zero turn mower would be thousands of dollars and I'd have to spend time mowing, trimming, blowing, bagging, etc. Plus buying the trimmer, blower, etc, and doing all the maintenance on that equipment.

So instead of going through all that effort, I pay a guy about $600 a year to do all that. It's cheaper, faster, and better than I could do it myself. Like I said, I don't know the details of that specific situation, but I do know that there's a TON of "hobby farmers" around here that outsource bushhogging and other

The other guy is buying equipment for his business. How is he getting his work done today? Is this daily work, or this the "not using it every day" instance you mentioned? Can he not rent a tractor on the days/jobs he needs? Or subcontract those jobs out to someone who does own the equipment?

Or, if he reaaaaaaallly needs the equipment to up his game, so to speak, could he not go and get clients first and have them pre-pay for enough services to cover the cost of the tractor? If not, he's probably not in a good position anyway.

I worked for a construction company back in the 1990s that owned ZERO heavy equipment. They would include the rental of equipment in the bid. The rental company then would be responsible for the maintenance and depreciation. That construction company has been around for 60 years now and still owns no heavy equipment.

So, like I said, it's a completely different mindset. Those guys may not have even considered outsourcing or rental because....well because they never thought of that.

I outsource production of my switch panels because 1) I don't believe that hobby-grade printers can produce items up to my standards and 2) I don't have $300,000 to by an industrial-grade printer. I also don't have $50,000 to get molds made, so traditional manufacturing is not an option. Do you know how many panels I would have to sell just to make back that $50k mold investment? More than is realistic, I can tell you that.
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