Bugout4x4

Now I'm starting to wonder if putting a 40 lb magnet on even the pickup might be too heavy for it. Somethings gotta give. lol

He still has me confused about pressure relating to magnetic pull in that.

CoffeeCommando

The magnets are in place(s).




The rear 2 cylinders have a hole for draining oil, so they got a third one up top.







Right inside the oil port for the filter.



Fits just right.

Larry's XJ

Should have used Rottela !!

TRCM

Yes, you are both correct in that it is not a direct correlation...because they are measured in different units.....but both the 'magnetic pull' and the 'pump pressure' exert a force per unit area....which can be directly compared.

No, I was not talking about magnetic force on the body of the pump or any part of the pump, but on the pieces of metal and/or powdered metal flowing thru the pump, moved by the 60-80 psi of fluid pressure the pump provides.


Based on some research, the pull rating is how much weight the magnet will hold against gravity when the weight is directly below the center of the magnet's force, and the magnet is attached to a piece of steel that is able to fully absorb all the magnetism and is perfectly flat for 100% contact (which in the case of an oil pan, it won't be unless your oil pan is at least as thick as the magnet, which is unlikely given the pull rating).

So, let's use some science, math, and common sense to figure this out.

These magnets you are going to use will hold a 40 lb weight hence the 40 lb pull rating. I will have to guess as to size, but let's say 1" in diameter.

So, a 1" diameter magnet is 0.785 sq inches, which means if it will hold 40 lbs, it exerts ~51 lbs per sq inch (50.96) on whatever it is holding.

The oil pump is rated for 60-80 lb per sq inch, and that is with a free flow path. Since it is a positive displacement design pump, it will pump oil as long as it's gears are spinning, and there is a place for the oil to go (IE flow path). If you block off the flow path, the pressure will skyrocket until either the driving motor stalls, or the pump shaft shears or gears/housing crack. This often occurs above the 250 psi mark, albeit it only for a split second.

Since the oil pump is rated 60-80 lbs per sq inch.....but the magnet is only capable of exerting a 51 lb per sq inch force....how is it the magnet is stronger ??

That is all I was getting at...the magnet is strong, but not strong enough to stop metal & metallic debris from being pumped thru the oil pump or engine unless it catches it on the drainage side of things where the oil pump pressure doesn't really matter.



If you read the linked article in post #11 about the magnets (hard to do I know as it repeats itself often), it even say it's better to put them in the areas of oil drainage so as to catch the particles before they go thru the pump.



.

TRCM

I see the magnets in the 1st 2 pics....can you pull them off or move them around with your fingers only ? If so, I would epoxy them in place, or they will move. There is a reason racers epoxy them in place.


I assume the bars in the 3rd pic are the magnets ? Not sure that is a good place to put them, as if they ever get fuzzy with debris (which they will), they will block off a LOT of the intake for the oil pump. Also, magnets have a nasty habit of magnetizing the stuff they are stuck to, so over time, the screen itself will also start to act like a magnet, and that will even further block off flow to the pump. I'd rather see them on the oil pan near or right under the pickup screen vice on the screen directly, but at least on the solid side of the oil pickup, so they don't block the screen at all when they get fuzzy. If the oil can't get to the pump, you'll be back where you are now.


In the last 2 pics, I would be concerned about how much flow area you are losing by putting the magnet inside the filter adapter housing fitting like that. It looks like you are taking up close to 15% of the flow area with it, which would mean you are only getting 85% of normal flow thru there.

That may or may not be a problem, but I'd rather not take the chance. I'd rather see it epoxied to the aluminum housing on either side of that oblong hole shown in the last pic. That way, you still get the magnet doing what you want it to, but you aren't blocking any flow like you are by putting the magnet inside the fitting.


If you don't understand what I am getting at, think of a crimp in your exhaust pipe...that is effectively what that magnet is doing in the fitting.



.

Bugout4x4

OK I see what you are getting at now, it was how you worded it the first couple times that had me confused. I was joking about a 40 lb magnet being too heavy of course.

I see how you are reasoning here but there is something to remember in this. Pressure is not flow. Flow is what will have a rinsing action more than pressure would. you could have a flow of .01 GPM running at 80 PSI or a flow of 1000 GPM running at 80 PSI. Even though both are at 80 PSI only one is going to do any serious rinsing action.

So flow is really what's to be debated in this. Once a system fills to the end restrictions like the bearings and restriction ports in the lifters, the hydraulic back pressure in the system is going to reduce flow all the way back down to right where the gear teeth "bite" more oil to pump.

And auto oil pumps are not quite as "positive" as we would like to think they are. They can only be made to a certain tolerance and there is still some bypass around and at the ends of the gears. So when the back pressure builds in the pump it's self it quits biting into the oil until "flow" is released at the other end.

CoffeeCommando

If you're running 60-80 PSI non stop ... I think you got problems. In all of my Jeeps, built and factory, the PSI stays at 30-60 depending on engine speed.


I don't know where you found that. K&J Magnetics is my source. Magnets have 3 different scenarios for pull force, and the pull force is not related to the gauss rating at all. The size and shape of the magnet determines the gauss surface field. Gauss is how many lines of magnetism radiate outwards from the magnet (more gauss will hold more individual particles), and the reach they have is always directly related to the size and shape of the magnet. The scenario that applies to my magnetic setup (having an iron base on one side) multiplies the pull force on the opposing side. Since I am using discs in the proportions it is shaped, that multiplies the pull force 4 times. They are 10~ lbs stand alone sitting in open air, but 40lbs when attach to a metal surface (closing the magnetic loop on one pole does this for some unknown reason).

You're comparing apples to oranges. The only place there is pressure in the oiling system is where there is restriction (by design). The oil pump generates volume, and the tiny clearances between the surfaces of the cam, crank, and rod bearings (as well as the push rods and other journals/passages built into the block) creates resistance to the expansion of the oil. There's no electric pump in there to generate pressure, there are impellers pushing more volume into those tiny passages, which is why you can lose oil pressure if any of those surfaces are wearing, or have excessive pressure if something gets lodged in a journal. Outside of all of those tiny crevices there is no pressure at all. If there was, any time you pulled the PCV off you would have "60-80 PSI" (if you have that much pressure you might want to do a motor flush and/or get a mechanical gauge, because that's high even for a new engine) blowing out of the hose and that's just not the case. The oil pump pressure sending unit is situated right where the volume is generated at the top of the oil pump so it relays the "pressure" that is inside your oiling passages.

And like I said, PSI is not pull force. Explain how PSI, even if there was any inside the open areas of the engine, is going to interfere with magnetism? By that thought processing the weak magnets this guy used (ceramic, the weakest magnets available today which only generate a few lbs of pull force) shouldn't be catching anything. That's obviously erroneous because the guy takes his filter apart and finds some metal built up on the inside wall of the oil filter. I have a pair of the magnets the guy uses in the video below and they're the cheap 3-4lber you can get at Lowe's.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaYla6h8LRs&t=1m47s



You're theorizing. Ideas and theories can be made ad-infinitum on anything. If it doesn't hold up to reality it isn't worth a hill of beans, and I only do real things. I test things for myself. You might also say HHO on cars doesn't work on improving mileage (true, if you don't know how to do it right), and even in that tiny community there are few that understand that magnetism does affect the output of a cell, if you know how to do it right. Microscopic analysis of magnetized water shows that the structure of the water and the elements within are organized into structures while non-magnetized water was all chaos. Magnetism is what keeps up sane on this earth, and is why astronauts have to have schuman resonators to simulate the earth's magnetic field so they don't develop space dementia. The magnetic field of the earth is also what shield's us from cosmic radiation, but I digress. I've read a lot about magnetism in the past year. The only reason we even have water is because of the magnetic field. Every where else in the universe hydrogen is a mono/di/triatomic gas.


That's where they are, and they're also at the input of the pump as a preventative measure to keep it from getting sucked into the pump, and just in case it does it's also on the inlet to the oil filter, and I have them on the oil filter body as well. They are right under both of the drain passages in the rear of the block, that's why there are 3 there and I said it on the picture as well.

CoffeeCommando

1. There's no need to epoxy unless the surface is some form of aluminum with almost no magnetism, which a lot of race engines (and modern vehicles today) are. The block and head for our application is iron, and the magnets are barely moveable as is.

2. The only questionable spot for the magnets is the 1 I have inside the oil pump inlet, but it's removable, and it's inside the filter, and there are magnets on the outside of the body in case something goes awry there anyways. The filter will handle it should it come loose, but it's in there tight and as it is I will need a much stronger magnet just to get it out, like one of my 60lb'ers. I am pretty sure it isn't moving.

3. The oil pump sits right above the bottom of the oil pan. Whether I put it on one or the other is the difference of... half an inch? I'm not worried about that. If I have that much metal getting caught on the magnet I've got bigger problems than worrying about "fuzz", and it's a good damn thing the magnets ARE there, for precisely that reason.


4. I'll know if the magnet is a problem because the oil pressure will be excessive. Until then, it stays. Reality trumps theories.

Bugout4x4

I don't think there is anything wrong with your concept at all. The only issue I could see was magnetizing the pump housing and gears themselves which you are not going to do so it should be good to go!

TRCM

The flow will maybe drop....but on the pump side of the restriction (lets say bearing), you will have high pressure and relatively low flow...but on the opposite side of the bearing (lets say crankcase), you have high flow (basically free flow) and low pressure.

If all flow is stopped suddenly, the pumps internal relief would open to avoid damage by design.

Remember, conservation of energy..the flow will go up just as much as the pressure goes down. High pressure & low flow upstream of a restriction will become low pressure and high flow on the downstream side. Same amount of energy, just changes from pressure to flow.


And to be honest, no pump ever made is truly positive displacement, as a pump requires parts to move against each other to pump, and that requires clearance, which means leak by, which means a pressure bled off point.

Yes, an automotive oil pump is not 100% positive displacement, but I have seen them shear shafts and break the end notch off the shaft when flow is blocked and the pump relief failed due to gunk & fuzz. And their pressure will skyrocket if flow is suddenly blocked off while running up to the point of the pumps internal relief, which is usually ~ 90 psi.

TRCM

Wow...it is apparent you are going to do what you want, no matter what anyone says.

Good Luck with that....and I honestly don't mean that in a smart *** way either.

For the rest of your diatribe:

1) I didn't say the pump put out 60-80 psi, I said it was RATED 60-80 psi. Just like your miracle magnet, it only puts out max force under perfect conditions. You say you get 30-60 depending on engine speed, well, double your engine speed, and the pressure will also double until the relief kicks in.

2) All my info came straight from K & J magnetics thru your link

3) Holy crap !!
a) To begin with youtube links about magnets on an oil filter....really ?? Well there are just as many that say they don't help.

b) Impellers are used in centrifugal pumps, gears are used in spur gear pumps, which is the kind our engines use (some newer engines use gerotor type pumps now, but not ours). Impellers impart force by forcing the fluid out thru vanes inside the impeller as it rotates to the outer shell of the pump, gears, while they do rotate themselves, do not impart force due to the rotating, but rather the gear moving forces oil around the housing as it moves thru the pump.

c) Pressure is equal thru out any system that is pressurized. (see Pascals Law). The pressure is present up until the restriction (high pressure, low flow) then after the restriction, it drops off to whatever the drain line pressure is (low pressure, high flow), generally nothing. If that wasn't the case, then your oil pan would be under the same exact pressure as the pump output...but it isn't. Look at it this way...your garden hose has ~10 of pressure on it, and if you put your thumb over it, that pressure is in the hose itself will increase since you just created a restriction, but that water spraying out past your thumb isn't at that pressure anymore now is it ??

d) You are correct on one thing, there is no electric motor, but 'driving motor stalls' doesn't mean electric....the engine it self is commonly called a motor, and if it stalls, guess what, the oil pump stops.

e) You are still confusing yourself...hydraulic pressure and magnetic pull force, while measured in different ways and in different units, are still represented as a FORCE PER UNIT AREA measurement.

4) I guess my 30+ yrs of working in the mechanical, hydraulic, electric, steam turbine, gas turbine, and multiple other fields, also using magnetics, gravity, air pressure, & fluid flow, among other things, doesn't mean jack. I am not theorizing, I am telling you like it is. If the pressure of the oil multiplied by the surface area of the metal particle in the oil is greater than the magnetic pull, it will keep moving with the oil flow. If there is NO oil flow, which means the pump is not rotating (or it is cavitating which is really bad), then the magnet will pull the particle towards it. Plain old science, in the real world anyway.

5) Magnetic water vs non-magnetic water ?? Where are you from ??? Water is water. And I hate to tell ya, science says other planets have magnetic fields just like earth..........




1) I suggested epoxying them only if you can move them with your fingers, as if you can, they WILL move under the heat, vibration, and other factors present inside the engine during operation. Your engine, you can risk it, I'm just advising you based on what my professional engine building friends do.

2) Questionable in your eyes maybe. Per the K&J site you use, the only way the magnetic force is multiplied is if the surface the magnet sits on is perfectly flat for maximum contact...cast iron is not.

3) That 1/2" difference you aren't worried about is the difference between the oil pump having a suction and it being blocked.

4) Doubt the oil pressure will change at oil...but the flow rate WILL. Make sure you are talking about the same thing I am. I said blocking flow, and flow is not pressure. You can have pressure without flow, but not flow without pressure. Reducing area doesn't change pressure as much as it does flow.

Reality trumps theory eh ?? What reality are you in ? Your posts clearly show you don't have a firm grasp on hydraulics or science, theory or reality, and I hope your love of magnets and of doing what you want doesn't kill your engine.


I don't know if you just didn't say what you meant or not, but your statement "The only place there is pressure in the oiling system is where there is restriction" is FLAT OUT WRONG and shows gross misunderstanding.

Reality, is there is pressure from the pump itself thru all the oil passages up to the bearings/orifices/restrictions.

Use your magnets all you want, they will probably help, but I've built many engines, and I have never put a magnet inside one, and I have also never had any problems with them failing either. I was just trying to help you avoid potential problems in the future by just putting magnets inside an engine ***** nilly without a lot of thought into how & where to attach them and how they will affect the various functions of the components inside the engine.


Good Luck.........let us know how it works out.


.

DucMan

The magnets in a Tran. pan only collect debris when the engine is turned off. The location area was singled out because engineers noticed that debris collected there and the magnet was to keep "chunks" from breaking loose and attacking the pump gears..they do little or nothing while there is flow. Without writing a term paper, just think of how many people are killed surfing by "rip-tides" when 3 feet to either left or right there is little "flow" ( go with the flow) LOL...If it worked every engine in the world would already use it...You will get much more real "life" out of an engine, painting the insides with armature paint so the debris can't collect in the first place. One other thing...you better volt or glue them..Any magnets we ever used would come loose inside an engine (tran. pan not so violent an environment) that's why they are attached to drain plugs with bolts or screws...besides you want to be able to clean the Denis out...not leave it for the life of the engine...I speak from a lifetime of building race motors for IMSA SCCA, NASA, WERA, AMA, NHRA, IHRA, and others...believe me if it worked we would have used it! Its not a new idea..first used in 1923(?) REO's I believe... You can rip a persons arm off dragging them sideways out of a rip-tide...

CoffeeCommando

I don't get why people mis-interpret clear responses as arguing. If someone displays intelligence and declines to take your advice, they want you burned at the stake. I don't tip-toe and sugar coat words to keep people in their safe zones so I guess that's where it stems from. It's like Jesus said, in the last days many people will be offended and hate one another.

Did you notice you told me I was wrong and then repeated what I said earlier in your own paraphrase.. ?

I'm over it though. You're right, I will do what I want. Isn't that what we all do anyways. If I ever have enough metal accruing to block my oil pump inlet, there's much larger problems than whether my magnet is on the pump sump or the oil pan itself.

Tbone289

They can be compared, but only at the output of the pump... What if that piece of metal is stuck at the input of the pump, where the PSI is nowhere near 80? Granted, flow should be high at the input, but not pressure.

CoffeeCommando

I wonder how negatively using a finer stainless steel micron mesh/screen covering the screen at the oil pump/sump would work. I know you can't put too fine of mesh in oil pumps because it hurts the flow, hence the reason for the bypass valves and bypass oil filter setups that filter down to 2 microns.

Flow would be a problem I imagine, and debris accumulating in the bottom of the pan as well.