CoffeeCommando

Anything less than 30 microns is considered fog. I've seen some true foggers nozzles but they are expensive and require compressed air (even more $ and engineering).

Thanks for linking that site. A company that actually has something that will work with a ride range of pressures is ideal, and it says they have no internal parts (I've had every nozzle I've used with it's rated pressure stop working and start dribbling, and these were brass units).

It would be nice if it showed the spray micron sizes. The filter will just keep stuff out of the water. The micron size is largely a product pressure vs nozzle rating. That PJ8 is practically the smallest one they have and it looks like it was making fog at 850 PSI. I won't be spending $1100 on a high pressure pump. That's counter to my whole goal of minimum money for maximum quality and effectiveness. Cutting the pressure from 850 to 250 will triple the micron size of what was shown in the video. I don't know what it was, but if it was 20 that would make it 60. Even the methanol injection nozzles do better than that at 200PSI, so I am inclined to think it's less than that but still not sure. I'll call them about it one day when I am ready to start experimenting again.

I really need true dry fog so that it will not condense while in use, or hopefully after many uses) and clog up the lines, but also will easily pass through a filter in case I decide I need or want to do that.

CoffeeCommando

60/40 emulsified diesel/water in a tractor:

97grand4.0

Hydrogen..Oh, the humanity!

Outlaw Star

Hindenburg anyone?

Bugout4x4

Hydrogen.

CoffeeCommando

Aluminum subjected to sodium or potassium hydroxide chemically breaks down into raw HHO. ELectrolysis in and of itself is a chemical reaction. Drano and aluminum foil is how steven segal made a bomb inside a microwave in one of his movies. It was a hydrogen bomb, the most environmentally friendly way to blow up your neighbor's house when the gov'ment is after you. It's why you can't use aluminum for an HHO cell, although you could get a 12v solenoid that opens on ignition and closes when off and just have some bars or strips of aluminum in there, but then more engineering has to be involved to ensure it isn't leaking out of the container, either through surfaces or just straight through the pores in the material being used.

Anyways, I finally found someone igniting raw water. He has a power inverter running to a bridge rectifier with a capacitor and an ignition coil. I was trying to think up way to use an ignition coil for making a high voltage HHO cell about a year ago, instead it could be better used to just ignited misted water like I am thinking about now.

Nology Hotwires are made with capacitors in them. The reason this works so well is because an inverted signal when rectified to DC increases in voltage. A 120AC becomes somewhere around 150-180DC, so your ignition coil is amplifying a signal that's 15x stronger. The question is.... will that cause interference with the vehicle's electronics? And how long would that power inverter last? I wouldn't use anything less than 2000 watts to start with since the less power it provides the longer it will last.

CoffeeCommando

I finally got the mist'jection setup.... setup. I used just the one near the intake inlet at first (.012" orifice), then added the higher flowing .015" orifice at the far end afterwards. I started to get bogged down and idle low after a short trip down the street, so I replaced it with another .012"

The difference in flow rate between those two running at about 80 PSI is humongous. I can hear the water pump cycling once a second with both. With one .012" it's only once every few seconds.

I have a collapsible hose setup that water can condense in the crevices of so the build up might have been the cause of the boggy'ness when I swapped the .015" for a second .012". I'll retest it today.

(Video of the setup misting inside the airbox)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MtVGypo7Q1Xnbll72

I'll be getting paid today and in the coming weeks so I'll be able to get more miles and testing with different things. I have that high amp alternator so the power-inverted HHO setup is on the menu. I can hardly wait to get that hooked up. I'll have to call MechMan and find out what the idle output of that alternator is so I can use the right amount of capacitance to limit the current draw on the VAC side since there is no such thing as a 150+ VDC pulse width modulator.

What would be nice is some way to vary the amperage output to the cell so that with increased RPM it could be allowed to pull more amps. That would be a huge leg up in the HHO community. No one has done that yet. It's just whatever amps it can pull, and is safe at idle, which means they perform best at low speeds. There might already be some sort of circuit out there that easily can accomplish that on a 120 VAC setup, I just don't know what it is. And light dimmer switches at Lowe's don't count. THey're rated for a certain amperage, and if you exceed it they will pop.

CobraMarty

It seems like a waste having system on during idling. You don't need economy during that time.

I would have it come on only during Cruise Control operation. That is when you want economy. This would lessen then 'puddling' especially during idling and deceleration.
For cruise economy, it doesn't have to have instant on. It could take a second or two and that would be fine.

Bugout4x4

You hit on the answer that I have been exploring for a few years now. The product needs to be compressed, stored, metered, and regulated depending on demand as stored power.

CoffeeCommando

I have figured out how to make the HV setup from rectified VAC work without frying the electrical system.

Either:
1. Remove all ground from block and connect directly to battery.
2. Replace standards spark plugs with custom ones that are electrically isolated from vehicle ignition system.

Once I realized option 2 I think I understood what Stan Meyers was on to before he was poisoned. He invented a system that replaced your typical spark plugs and retrofitted gasoline engines to be ran on water. I bet he intensified the spark ignition to ignite the water from the fuel injector, and with those spark plugs it could be connected to any spark plug system, for $1500.

My water setup bogged down the engine in the 1500~ RPM range with two .012" misters, so I went back to one. With a 150VDC ignition spark setup I would probably be igniting that water as well as more fuel. More power. This is knowledge that needs to be handled carefully, on a test vehicle only. If we only tap into 20% of the energy in fuel, then using more that is injected will certainly cause problems since the blocks aren't able to handle that much force, nor are the pistons, valves and crank; However, you can now replace $2.70 of gasoline with 15 cents worth of water = ]

Since the energy per volume of water is 3x more than gasoline you would want to inject about 1/3rd less on a full water injected setup. I remember reading about how Stan Meyers talked about recirculating exhaust gasses into the intake to try to douse the water injection down to reduce the force of the explosion so the system would run just like a normal gasoline setup. I don't know why he didn't just limit pulse widths. He was already adding scores of pounds of electrical gadgetry to vehicles at the time anyways, but I have read from other sources he tried to hide the secrets of how his system in the patents worked behind complex engineering on purpose. Invention protection through complexity seems to be a common thing.

Skip to 1:52 to see the "water fracturing" technology that looks like a spark plug that he was going to use to retrofit cars to run on water.

CoffeeCommando

Looky what I found. These guys use a high-amp isolated circuit to pump large amounts of high-amp lower voltage energy across the spark plugs. 200+ amps. I should call them and find out what the draw on the charging system is like because I see no one making mention of that, but the web site says it still uses 60 watts like a generic ignition system which makes no sense. That means they're using a fraction of a volt if the system is using 200+ amps.
The body of the unit looks a lot like an audio amplifier on the web site.....

Bugout4x4

I see how it works. It is a piggy back inline plug wire amplifier system from an already existing ignition. So with this added you are in essence supplying power to two ignition systems rather than replacing the already existing system. How much cost/benefit there would be to this I'm not sure, it still boils down to what fuel it is igniting whether it is beneficial or just redundant.

Interesting concept though and deserves some deeper research.

CoffeeCommando

The spark is too bright to just be a secondary ignition source, and the amps too high.. according to the paper descriptions.

CobraMarty

Pretty 'bright' pictures of the spark kernel. I wounder how they keep the spark plug tips intact? Works great until the spark plugs are toast after 100 miles?

I think another solution is to use a voltage amp for the coil (+) wire. Instead of feeding the stock coil 12v, feed it 16-18 volts. Kaboom spark. These products are already out there, like 'boost-a-pump' for fuel pumps.

Bugout4x4

Good morning Sir. I read it well and analyzed how it is made. Keyword here is "Amplifier" and when looking at it, it becomes obvious that the representative unit they show is for a V8 and has two banks, one for four cylinders on each side. Each of these bank rails has 8 plugwire hookups (4 in-4 out) and one amplifier input from one of two outputs (left bank-right bank) from the amplifier.

So it is made to be an inline booster between a primary existing ignition source and the spark plugs. Similar to a TV antenna signal booster/amplifier. It steps it up a notch from a primary ignition on it's way to the end ground. This is how they explain it on their site...

"The Ionfire plasma amplifier from Blue Phoenix Ignition amplifies the secondary spark AFTER it has been generated by existing on board CDI boxes and ignition modules from MSD or any other brand and is therefore compatible with all existing ignition modules."

"Does the Ionfire Ignition system from Blue Phoenix replace MSD ignition or existing CDI systems that is already installed?

In short the resounding answer is no. The Ionfire Plasma spark amplifier SUPPLEMENTS MSD, Crane or AEM ignition systems. They are not meant to replace MSD or any CDI module.

One of the most frequent reactions I get when I introduce the Ionfire plasma ignition module from Blue Phoenix Ignition to racers and engine builders is confusion with regards to the MSD system or equivalent CDI system from AEM to Crane that they have already installed. Racers and engine builders often misunderstand that the Blue Phoenix Ionfire Ignition amplificaition system somehow is meant to replace MSD and nothing works better than MSD so there is no point spending money on untested technology."

"Do not worry about your MSD system or any other custom CDI system you have already installed. The Blue Phoenix Ignition system work by amplifying the plasma kernel of the spark after it has been generated by your existing on board ignition system. "

https://bluephoenixignition.blogspot.com/

So being an inline passive amplifier they have one of two options, utilize the 12v current supply to the unit to either boost the voltage or boost the amperage. They are obviously using it to boost amperage. I can see this being an advantage in racing conditions where you are trying to squeeze every little tiny fraction of power from your "rich fuel ratio" racing environment, it still comes at a cost with requiring an additional 12v power draw on top of the existing primary ignition draw.

So without trying and experimenting with one, I honestly can't say what the benefit/cost ratio would be if it was switched on continuously for consistent everyday driving. So like I mentioned, depending on the fuel used, it could just be overkill and wasted unneeded power draw and redundancy. I don't know... someone would have to buy one and keep track of the benefit/cost ratio to know for sure how much of an advantage it truly is in a "lean fuel ratio" non-racing environment.