Crazy 8s

For just the cost of the 20+ B2 bombers we made, (about $50 Billion), we could build solar collection farms enough to power the entirety of the United States for the next 100 years.

We get lied to on all levels...

BlueRidgeMark

No, you can't. There's not enough land area, there's no feasible storage method to take care of rainy days and, uh, nights.

Current solar technology is not going to get the job done.

salad

Technically there's enough physical space for solar power of that scale, but it's all in only a couple states (pick somewhere in the southwest). Everywhere else is very inefficient, so it's gotta be there.

Now imagine a state claiming eminent domain for the ENTIRE state...

Yeah, not happening.

Current photovoltaic technology is so terribly inefficient as well. To cover an area large enough to produce that much power, it probably would take 100 years anyway, and by the time you were done the oceans would be unable to sustain any life at all from all the pollution created by the process (Chinese PV cells are one of the larger "green" scams at the moment).

Molten salt is a much better solution on a large scale, but again, the land mass required... and energy storage is still a problem.

Crazy 8s

Germany's electricity is 50% solar generated and they aren't using all that much of their land and they aren't known for being particularly sunny.

We have been lied to on all levels. Solar energy can provide all of our energy needs, though photovoltaics are not the solution.

Crazy 8s

All of our energy sources now are ultimately solar energy from the beginning. Think about it on the grander scale... Even nuclear energy is solar energy as all of the heavy elements came from the stars. Light from the Sun produced the plants that fed the animals and those plants and animals became oil. Light from the sun caused water to evaporate into the clouds, to be rained down later and then funnelled through hydroelectric dams.

Of course we can power everything on Earth with solar energy...we've just got to get a lot smarter about it.

Radi

Well....sort of.
Germany generated 24.24 GW via solar for a few moments on one day in June, which happened to be a holiday with little industry operating. That supplied 50% of demand for a few moments.
By early evening solar had dropped back to just 9.4 GW, with conventional generation supplying 44.5 GW and a total demand of 58.5 GW, leaving Germany to import the deficiency from it's neighbors.

Typically Germany's solar capability peaks between 15- 25% of demand, much less during long wintertime stretches. And those are *peak values only attained for a few hours on certain days.
Guess where the bulk of the remaining power comes from?
Coal. Not just Coal, but much of it is Lignite, the dirtiest form of coal. In fact Germany has increased it's coal consumption as they take Nuke plants offline.

I'm not intending to slam Germany's efforts, rather to show the actual numbers that can be hit by a country that's full-out into renewable. It isn't there yet...not even half there. And Germany is roughly the size of New Mexico...we have 49 more states to power up.

BlueRidgeMark

Agreed!


And putting them in space doesn't work, either.

Rising Fawn

Hydrogen is the fuel of the future.
Maybe not your future or my future but certainly our Grandchildren's.

There's a glass wall that has to be broken to find the efficient way to break the molecular bond that holds the oxygen and hydrogen atoms together in water.
Efficient meaning that it takes less energy to break the molecular bond than the hydrogen fuel that is generated.
From then on, it's a winning situation.
When that happens, and it will, the flood gates will open.
80% of the known universe is composed of Hydrogen, that's a lot of energy.

Of course, the political consequences will have to be dealt with....Big Oil

It's kinda like the apple falling on Newton's head and the "discovery" of gravity.
Someday, a apple will fall on some inventor's head and then it will be "Ah! HA!, that's how it's done"!

Green house gases will become a artifact, then it will take mankind 100 years to clean up the mess left by fossil fuels.

just my opinion.

Crazy 8s

'Zero-point energy' is the 'fuel' of the future. Maybe not the immediate future, but the not-too-distant future....

Hydrogen takes up far too much storage space to be practical...and finding an overunity solution for electrolysis is just shy of impossible...unless one uses zero-point energy...which would then make hydrogen obsolete except for welding and a few other menial tasks.

salad

Not sure what kind of books you've been reading but manufacture is simple. Wind, solar, geothermal, tidal, whatever. Very easy to set up along ocean coasts. Oh hey there's a ton of water.

The problem with hydrogen is, and really always has been, storage and transmission. It's nearly impossible to do anything with hydrogen at more than an experimental or field trial level. It is incredibly impractical as a universal drop-in replacement for fossil fuels. As a fuel for vehicles, be fuel cell or internal combustion, it doesn't make any sense at a scale less than a commercial fleet of heavy-duty vehicles. People can barely handle gasoline. How are they going to use an explosive? Then they'll need to their tanks and engine changed every few years due to embrittlement...

It's feasible to do SOMETHING with, the problem is people keep looking for a "silver bullet". No such thing exists. People's habits and our infrastructure are based on fossil fuels. If they want to change the fuel everything else needs to change too.

BlueRidgeMark

You might want to review your 7th grade science materials. I think you missed some things.

Rising Fawn

Oh those kind of books...you know.... the kind a Mechanical Engineer with a 4 year B.S. degree would read.
The kind a person who has over 40 years experience in designing and building large scale Thermal systems that are heated with Gas, Oil, Steam, Coal...those kind.

The kind a person who, after designing and building machinery for 30 years took and passed a State Electrical Contracting Exam on the first try and went on to own and operate his own Electrical Contracting business for 15 years.

The kind of books that a person would read who paid his way through college by working in a Machine shop and Auto Repair Shop.

The kind of books a person who is proficient in Auto Cad, Welding, Auto Mechanics, Electrical, Plumbing and Carpentry.

Those kind of books......

What kind of books do you read...beside Mother Earth News?

The practical use of Hydrogen as a fuel will be to burn it as it is produced without worrying about containment and storage .

People keep using the word "impossible".
Just like Breaking the Sound Barrier, Landing on the Moon, Curing Polio, Breaking the Atom, Genetic Medicine, Heart and Liver Transplants.

This is not a Horror tale and silver bullets won't be required.
It's hard science that will take a lot of ideas, research and changes to implement.
Impossible?
No.

Crazy 8s

It takes more energy to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen in water (H2O) than is released when they are recombined. Physics and Chemistry 101.

Rising Fawn

7th Grade Huh?
Congratulations, you made it 2 years further than Jethro Bodine.

Unfortunately, there is a lot more science than is contained in your 7th grade reader.

Dig a little deeper.

salad

I meant relatively speaking: Manufacture is simple compared to storage. Your post made it seem like you thought the only barrier to adopting a hydrogen-based fuelling system as a drop-in replacement to fossil fuels is efficiency of production, which is an utter load of ****. The histrionics are uncalled for and not helping this discussion.

I've just been reading Scientific American. I have no idea what a "Mother Earth News" is...

Yes, precisely.

Not sure who's done that so far...? Nothing is impossible.