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Some recent conversing with a Romanian guy in China that has been working in the hydrogen community for the past 9 years told me that most of what all electrolysis units are actually making isn't hydrogen gas, but water vapor.
He told me I was making H3O+ and OH- in vapor form and that because it was an oxygen scavenger the ECU was seeing less oxygen and actually running the engine leaner as a result. There certainly is some extra power from the ionized water vapor though because I don't use as much pedal to get from A to B anymore.
I will be upgrading to adding KNO3 after I verify that upgrading to 93 octane stops my start-up pre-ignition. When letting the engine sit after heating up and trying to start it I've heard the engine fighting the starter so I have to replace a flywheel this weekend.
I'll post results if I am able to get to use KNO3. It's supposed to be the opposite of a scavenger, it's an oxidizer when in vapor form, meaning more combustion. It would be simulating nitrous oxide on a smaller scale than a direct injection system.
Actually I will hold off on trying that until I have at least a thousand miles with the current setup I have. I'll check my spark plugs to verify I'm not having too lean of a burn. I also need to get cooler plugs as well. The dirty ones I had in there now look almost brand new. The #5 plug actually looks like one of the electrodes is worn down.
I am hopeful that with the addition of the potassium nitrate I can take it from 100% increase to at least 130. I haven't even plugged in the VOLO unit to enhance the use of hydrogen via timing retard. I might not use it in the end. The community of users that it was built towards was for people running a dry cell setup produce a small amount of cool gas that only produced a 20-30% increase. It modified sensor readings to allow for a leaner burn, and since I am clearly already getting my cell might also eliminate the need for a $100 electronic chip. I'm running a hot and prolific setup that probably is causing increased fuel vaporization as it. When I disconnect the port you can see the steam venting out of it.
Who here would gladly spend $500~ on a fuel cell with water that gave them 130% better mileage using a higher octane gas? From 17MPG to 39MPG.
The octane might not be necessary. I should have already been running 93 since I have a supercharger and increased amounts of dynamic compression from my engine build. I wish I could stop learning lessons the hard way.
Last edited by CoffeeCommando; Jun 4, 2018 at 05:22 PM.
So is the 'vapor/smoke' coming out flammable? I've seen guys light it.
According to everything I've watched. Given all the accidents I've had I am hesitant to light it. The vinegar vapor alone is supposed to be flammable. Water vapor certainly is flammable because the HHO torches guys make will burn larger orange flames unless they use a filter to sift out the condensed water vapor. When they do the flame goes to half size and is blue, indicating higher energy. Or... no, the reason the filters change the color is because they sift out the "caustic" electrolyte solutions that are being vaporized (IE sodium and potassium hydroxide). I almost forgot I just learned that recently. So the blue flame is actually the water vapor.
Using an acidic (opposite of caustic) electrolyte solution like vinegar produces ionized water vapor with a small amount of CO. Only 5% of vinegar is the acetic acid solution and it appears half the carbon builds up on the plates. It still runs wayyyyy cleaner than all the other solutions out there. My cell after running half an hour with the caustics has a bunch of oxidized rust sitting in the bottom, and my plates have pitted and scored marks in them from electron bombardment with the chemical reactions.
I decided to just pump out more total volumes of flammable gas with my setup by letting the heat ramp up. More heat means more flammable gas altogether. Since I now know that the water vapor is actually what I'm after that means more heat is actually what we want (to produce more vapor). That's why everyone else in the HHO community trying to use more plates with dry cells and minimizing heat is running at 20-40% MPG max despite their expensive complex setups.
Heat increases vapor, and so does vacuum. The heat from the vapor coming out of the cell will also increase gasoline vaporization. I think the temperature of the gas is around 150-170. I need to run NGK level 7 or 8 spark plugs. I've been running 5 and they look clean like they're new. I should have been running 6's on my application but wasn't aware. Given I'm doubling mileage I should go at least 7. Once I do that and switch to 93 octane I shouldn't have any more hot-start-pre-ignitions.... I think.
Say Marty, if I start burning 40-50% of the fuel inside the chamber and only letting 60-40 out to the cat (usually 20% is burned in an engine and the cat eats the other 80), do you think this would cause catalytic damage?
Last edited by CoffeeCommando; Jun 5, 2018 at 07:03 AM.
Just thought I'd get involved in this thread as I've just installed a dry cell kit in my 2000 XJ.
Its a 7 plate 7x7 inch cell, not the biggest, but a good start,
My first test I ran the cell with half a tank at 11amps and the other half at 8amps - the second half of a tank I found it made really decent gains, so I'm currently running a tank at 7 amps max.
Will update any improvements as I go.
Just thought I'd get involved in this thread as I've just installed a dry cell kit in my 2000 XJ.
Its a 7 plate 7x7 inch cell, not the biggest, but a good start,
My first test I ran the cell with half a tank at 11amps and the other half at 8amps - the second half of a tank I found it made really decent gains, so I'm currently running a tank at 7 amps max.
Will update any improvements as I go.
Nuclear Fusion Power Could Be Here by 2030, One Company Says
A private nuclear-fusion company has heated a plasma of hydrogen to 27 million degrees Fahrenheit (15 million degrees Celsius) in a new reactor for the first time — hotter than the core of the sun.
UK-based Tokamak Energy says the plasma test is a milestone on its quest to be the first in the world to produce commercial electricity from fusion power, possibly by 2030.
The company, which is named after the vacuum chamber that contains the fusion reaction inside powerful magnetic fields, announced the creation of the superhot plasma inside its experimental ST40 fusion reactor in early June.
The successful test – the highest plasma temperature achieved so far by Tokamak Energy – means the reactor will now be prepared next year for a test of an even hotter plasma, of more than 180 million degrees F (100 million degrees C).
That will put the ST40 reactor within the operating temperatures needed for controlled nuclear fusion; the company plans to build a further reactor by 2025 that will produce several megawatts of fusion power.
Hi Folks~! Im loving this thread. I have an 06' LJ 4.0L but based on your discussion, I dont think it matters too much which model I have.
Anywho, Id like to try some of the ideas that are floating here and see if I can get more than 13-15mpg.
Im very new to all this HHO, water vapor and plasma stuff but I have a decent mind and can do basic work on my rig.
From what I have read so far, I would be stupid to jump into it head first so I was hoping for some guidance if anyone feels up to it.
Maybe a list of materials and maybe a very basic how-to guide..? Hopefully that won't bring too many crass replies.
All help and advice much appreciated.
Just give it a search and you will find more than you want. And it really makes no difference what you are installing it on. Just have to find a place to mount it, wire it up, and pipe it in. I have even experimented with putting them on big rigs. But there is not much more that can be said about it than what has already been discussed in this thread.
I'm back, and I've learned some things from a pair of hydrogen veterans who've been doing this stuff for 12 years. It appears the real reason the hydrogen cells work on MPG comes down to a chemical reaction in the cylinders with the potassium/sodium hydroxide.
They combine with oxygen, nitrogen (from the air) and the sulfur+carbon from the fuel and unburned PCV vapors to turn into gunpowder (aside from the hydrogen that's already in there). It's essential a mixture of H3O- and NaOH vapors, so the electrolyte concentration is important. You want more electrolyte ions in the vapor. That's where the extra power comes from. Using EFIE circuits will modify the O2 sensors to allow them to run leaner in this condition without affecting performance.
I've found that the type of cell I have been developing (high heat) makes less of the H3O- and more H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide vapor). The H3O- scavenges oxygen molecules from the combustion process (less oxygen for the fuel to burn, more fuel in the exhaust, the O2's will likely read a richer condition and cut fuel). So that is another mechanism that it works through. H2O2 is the opposite.
H3O- scavenges oxygen molecules to combust. It is the combustion molecule.
H2O2 provides oxygen to combust. It promotes combustion.
Armed with this knowledge I'll be making a dual cell setup using both.
I finally got a unique cell setup that uses full voltage yet has a bunch of neutrals (without dropping the voltage like a dry cell with neutrals does). This is my H2O2 cell, which is very fizzy. The water expands to double the amount after about 10 minutes when it's fully warmed up to around 130~.
And I made a short video of it in action. It's very hard to see with the lighting and the bubbles being snow white.
The mileage results are in. I've gone from 11MPG to 15MPG, a 36% increase. Previous cell setups, and even the professional Fuel Genie setup I bought, didn't work. This current setup is. I think I might make a how-to on how to make one. The only problem is that it needs constant refilling (like every hour to 90 minutes of drive time) to keep the water level from getting too low. I'll be putting in a 3 gallon reservoir with a pump that's activated by a float switch I will have attached inside the cell ... at some point.
Engine: 4.3L with headers and full 3" exhaust system
Yeah, at this point after all this discussion I am a little confused as to exactly what you did. A reservoir would be good. Looking forward to what you did for success.
Yeah, at this point after all this discussion I am a little confused as to exactly what you did. A reservoir would be good. Looking forward to what you did for success.
What was done earlier and the post and what's in there now aren't the same setup. I'll post details later... if I don't forget.
