Welding thread!!!!
11-22-2017, 07:20 AM
#2326
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Year: 97
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Well...let's just say I'm down right now for the foreseeable future...Just ordered new wheels and tires. However, just this AM my pooch had to go in for emergency surgery, so any and all things are done right now, as it cleaned me out. I'll update my thread when things are square.
11-22-2017, 07:27 AM
#2328
CF Veteran
if you've never welded before, i would say mig for sure. whether you start off with a 110v machine, or 220. just be sure to get the best you can afford, then splurge a little bit more.
get one that accepts gas, of course. you can go better than box store and get one that has metal drive wheels and even better, one with infinite settings rather than potted. but those are usually much more $$.
red, blue, it doesn't really matter.
unless you want to jump straight into tig. then all your friends would be jealous.
get one that accepts gas, of course. you can go better than box store and get one that has metal drive wheels and even better, one with infinite settings rather than potted. but those are usually much more $$.
red, blue, it doesn't really matter.
unless you want to jump straight into tig. then all your friends would be jealous.
11-22-2017, 07:57 AM
#2329
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Leeds, Maine
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Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
I was in the same boat a while ago. I had done some stick welding, but was not very good at it, and I needed to replace the floorpans in the XJ, make repairs to my trailer, repair other things around my Dad's, so I decided to get a welder and learn how to weld. I've wanted to learn for many years.
I started looking at 110v buzz boxes, because I had a 220v Lincoln 'tombstone' welder and figured I could use that for the thicker metals. But after doing research and studying specs on different units, I decided to spend a lot more money and bought a Millermatic 211.
The advice on being capable of using gas is good, it makes a big difference is splatter and the quality of your weld. When I first got the machine I used the flux core wire, which did the trick, but after using the C25 and solid wire, I don't see myself doing anything different unless I am out of gas.
This Miller is dual voltage (which others are as well) with the change of the cord cap, uses inverter technology so it is only 38 lbs, can weld from 22ga to 3/8" and with a change in gas do stainless, or aluminum. It should cover anything I will ever want to do.
I still intend to take a welding course in the future, because although I am much more confident, I would like to learn more about different metals, etc
But to start, I watched a lot of videos on youtube and on Millers website, then I'd go out and practice the techniques. I will say, get an auto darkening helmet. That makes a huge difference, because you can place the electrodes exactly where you want it, then pull the trigger, so starting the weld is much easier. The angle and distance that you hold the gun to the material makes a big difference too, so being steady and consistent takes practice.
I started with a bunch of scrap 22ga and just kept practicing until I felt confident to start on my projects. I've done floorpans in the Jeep, my trailer, and even felt good enough about it to reinforce the hitch on my father's 1 ton D-max.
IF you're going to buy, be aware of the duty cycle on the machine. Basically that means how much welding you can do without over-working its capabilities.
Duty cycle is a welding equipment specification which defines the number of minutes, within a 10 minute period, during which a given welder can safely produce a particular welding current. For example, a 150 amp. welder with a 30% duty cycle must be "rested" for at least 7 minutes after 3 minutes of continuous welding.
You might consider borrowing or renting a welder before you buy, too. I know I was all over the place with what I wanted when I started looking. I looked at Lincoln', Hobarts, Millers, Harbor Freight. Just buy the best machine you can afford.
I started looking at 110v buzz boxes, because I had a 220v Lincoln 'tombstone' welder and figured I could use that for the thicker metals. But after doing research and studying specs on different units, I decided to spend a lot more money and bought a Millermatic 211.
The advice on being capable of using gas is good, it makes a big difference is splatter and the quality of your weld. When I first got the machine I used the flux core wire, which did the trick, but after using the C25 and solid wire, I don't see myself doing anything different unless I am out of gas.
This Miller is dual voltage (which others are as well) with the change of the cord cap, uses inverter technology so it is only 38 lbs, can weld from 22ga to 3/8" and with a change in gas do stainless, or aluminum. It should cover anything I will ever want to do.
I still intend to take a welding course in the future, because although I am much more confident, I would like to learn more about different metals, etc
But to start, I watched a lot of videos on youtube and on Millers website, then I'd go out and practice the techniques. I will say, get an auto darkening helmet. That makes a huge difference, because you can place the electrodes exactly where you want it, then pull the trigger, so starting the weld is much easier. The angle and distance that you hold the gun to the material makes a big difference too, so being steady and consistent takes practice.
I started with a bunch of scrap 22ga and just kept practicing until I felt confident to start on my projects. I've done floorpans in the Jeep, my trailer, and even felt good enough about it to reinforce the hitch on my father's 1 ton D-max.
IF you're going to buy, be aware of the duty cycle on the machine. Basically that means how much welding you can do without over-working its capabilities.
Duty cycle is a welding equipment specification which defines the number of minutes, within a 10 minute period, during which a given welder can safely produce a particular welding current. For example, a 150 amp. welder with a 30% duty cycle must be "rested" for at least 7 minutes after 3 minutes of continuous welding.
You might consider borrowing or renting a welder before you buy, too. I know I was all over the place with what I wanted when I started looking. I looked at Lincoln', Hobarts, Millers, Harbor Freight. Just buy the best machine you can afford.
Last edited by zr2toxj; 11-22-2017 at 08:28 AM.
11-22-2017, 08:17 AM
#2330
Newbie
if you've never welded before, i would say mig for sure. whether you start off with a 110v machine, or 220. just be sure to get the best you can afford, then splurge a little bit more.
get one that accepts gas, of course. you can go better than box store and get one that has metal drive wheels and even better, one with infinite settings rather than potted. but those are usually much more $$.
red, blue, it doesn't really matter.
unless you want to jump straight into tig. then all your friends would be jealous.
get one that accepts gas, of course. you can go better than box store and get one that has metal drive wheels and even better, one with infinite settings rather than potted. but those are usually much more $$.
red, blue, it doesn't really matter.
unless you want to jump straight into tig. then all your friends would be jealous.
11-22-2017, 08:21 AM
#2331
Newbie
I was in the same boat a while ago. I had done some stick welding, but was not very good at it, and I needed to replace the floorpans in the XJ, make repairs to my trailer, repair other things around my Dad's, so I decided to get a welder and learn how to weld. I've wanted to learn for many years.
I started looking at 110v buzz boxes, because I had a 220v Lincoln 'tombstone' welder and figured I could use that for the thicker metals. But after doing research and studying specs on different units, I decided to spend a lot more money and bought a Millermatic 211.
The advice on being capable of using gas is good, it makes a big difference is splatter and the quality of your weld. When I first got the machine I used the flux core wire, which did the trick, but after using the C25 and solid wire, I don't see myself doing anything different unless I am out of gas.
This Miller is dual voltage (which others are as well) with the change of the cord cap, uses inverter technology so it is only 38 lbs, can weld from 22ga to 3/8" and with a change in gas do stainless, or aluminum. It should cover anything I will ever want to do.
I still intend to take a welding course in the future, because although I am much more confident, I would like to learn more about different metals, etc
But to start, I watched a lot of videos on youtube and on Millers website, then I'd go out and practice the techniques. I will say, get an auto darkening helmet. That makes a huge difference, because you can place the electrodes exactly where you want it, then pull the trigger, so starting the weld is much easier. The angle and distance that you hold the gun to the material makes a big difference too, so being steady and consistent takes practice.
I started with a bunch of scrap 22ga and just kept practicing until I felt confident to start on my projects. I've done floorpans in the Jeep, my trailer, and even felt good enough about it to reinforce the hitch on my father's 1 ton D-max.
IF you're going to buy, be aware of the duty cycle on the machine. Basically that means how much welding you can do without over-working its capabilities.
Duty cycle is a welding equipment specification which defines the number of minutes, within a 10 minute period, during which a given welder can safely produce a particular welding current. For example, a 150 amp. welder with a 30% duty cycle must be "rested" for at least 7 minutes after 3 minutes of continuous welding.
You might consider borrowing or renting a welder before you buy, too. I know I was all over the place with what I wanted when I started looking. I looked at Loncolns, Hobarts, Millers, Harbor Freight. Just buy the best machine you can afford.
I started looking at 110v buzz boxes, because I had a 220v Lincoln 'tombstone' welder and figured I could use that for the thicker metals. But after doing research and studying specs on different units, I decided to spend a lot more money and bought a Millermatic 211.
The advice on being capable of using gas is good, it makes a big difference is splatter and the quality of your weld. When I first got the machine I used the flux core wire, which did the trick, but after using the C25 and solid wire, I don't see myself doing anything different unless I am out of gas.
This Miller is dual voltage (which others are as well) with the change of the cord cap, uses inverter technology so it is only 38 lbs, can weld from 22ga to 3/8" and with a change in gas do stainless, or aluminum. It should cover anything I will ever want to do.
I still intend to take a welding course in the future, because although I am much more confident, I would like to learn more about different metals, etc
But to start, I watched a lot of videos on youtube and on Millers website, then I'd go out and practice the techniques. I will say, get an auto darkening helmet. That makes a huge difference, because you can place the electrodes exactly where you want it, then pull the trigger, so starting the weld is much easier. The angle and distance that you hold the gun to the material makes a big difference too, so being steady and consistent takes practice.
I started with a bunch of scrap 22ga and just kept practicing until I felt confident to start on my projects. I've done floorpans in the Jeep, my trailer, and even felt good enough about it to reinforce the hitch on my father's 1 ton D-max.
IF you're going to buy, be aware of the duty cycle on the machine. Basically that means how much welding you can do without over-working its capabilities.
Duty cycle is a welding equipment specification which defines the number of minutes, within a 10 minute period, during which a given welder can safely produce a particular welding current. For example, a 150 amp. welder with a 30% duty cycle must be "rested" for at least 7 minutes after 3 minutes of continuous welding.
You might consider borrowing or renting a welder before you buy, too. I know I was all over the place with what I wanted when I started looking. I looked at Loncolns, Hobarts, Millers, Harbor Freight. Just buy the best machine you can afford.
11-22-2017, 08:11 PM
#2333
::CF Administrator::
EXCELLENT advice above.
I also have a 211 at home. Love it.
Don't cheap out. Get a good machine right away. Especially if you are learning. There's people out there that will tell you a bargain welder is fine to learn on. I disagree. I went that route. It sucked. Constantly fighting the machine was a PITA. Get a good machine and eliminate those issues.
Buy the best you can afford. Also for the things you want to do, get a dual voltage or 220 rig.
Then get to Carnegie hall. Practice practice practice LOL
I also have a 211 at home. Love it.
Don't cheap out. Get a good machine right away. Especially if you are learning. There's people out there that will tell you a bargain welder is fine to learn on. I disagree. I went that route. It sucked. Constantly fighting the machine was a PITA. Get a good machine and eliminate those issues.
Buy the best you can afford. Also for the things you want to do, get a dual voltage or 220 rig.
Then get to Carnegie hall. Practice practice practice LOL
11-22-2017, 08:34 PM
#2334
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Does Anyone know if stiffners can be done with tig or stick reasonably? Those are the only 220 v machines that I could possibly use. I have a flux core harbor freight 110 mig but it definitely won’t cut it.
11-23-2017, 09:49 AM
#2336
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Originally Posted by roninofako
Stick is a no go, you'd be burning holes like crazy, haha
You could TIG it.
You could TIG it.
11-23-2017, 10:11 AM
#2337
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Forwarded from another thread...
I hope you all don't mind, but I felt the discussion Freerider15 and I were having on another thread might be better served here in the welding thread hopefully for some additional dialog, knowledge and experience to be shared from both Freerider15 and other fabricators who might have time to dive into this topic about roll cage design and why they might be needed on these Jeeps.
I greatly understand, respect and appreciate the very good points, knowledge and experience Freerider so graciously found time to share in our debate conversation but felt that the reality of how soft these things are might warrant some more detailed discussion about why a cage (and cage design) is in my opinion an absolute necessity if you are going to put your loved ones in one of these.
Many are aware that I recently found out personally how soft and malleable these things really are. Far too soft for comfort, they have the tensile strength of lead and I am going to honest... It scared the hell out of me. If the right side rain gutter had not advantageously by chance folded over the top lip of the doors to "capture" them, The whole roof front to back would have smashed down flat and trapped me inside with no way to get out. Pretty much from just the weight of the vehicle alone. And this was a slow graceful roll at a complete stop and no forward motion. If I had been even going 5 miles an hour it would have indeed smashed all the way flat and trapped me inside.
So I would be privileged if anyone would like add their knowledge experience and two cents into our discussion and I hope Freerider may also find time to come dive into this deeper. This is the discussion so far forwarded from the other thread where we kind of went off topic on which is why I brought it over here where it actually belongs since the discussion moved to materials, design and welding.
Important at this point to refer to this second thought and contemplation about why I am considering the material I mentioned. The XJ design and shape has a lot to do with the concept I added here in this reply.
Please feel free to add your knowledge and experience on this topic if you find time. All input is welcome and greatly appreciated because this modification really needs to the be the best it can be because of how important it really is on these bodies. I never realized how imporatnt until my recent near miss because of it. I'm not going to put my Grandchildren in one of these again until the cabin skeleton is made stronger.
I greatly understand, respect and appreciate the very good points, knowledge and experience Freerider so graciously found time to share in our debate conversation but felt that the reality of how soft these things are might warrant some more detailed discussion about why a cage (and cage design) is in my opinion an absolute necessity if you are going to put your loved ones in one of these.
Many are aware that I recently found out personally how soft and malleable these things really are. Far too soft for comfort, they have the tensile strength of lead and I am going to honest... It scared the hell out of me. If the right side rain gutter had not advantageously by chance folded over the top lip of the doors to "capture" them, The whole roof front to back would have smashed down flat and trapped me inside with no way to get out. Pretty much from just the weight of the vehicle alone. And this was a slow graceful roll at a complete stop and no forward motion. If I had been even going 5 miles an hour it would have indeed smashed all the way flat and trapped me inside.
So I would be privileged if anyone would like add their knowledge experience and two cents into our discussion and I hope Freerider may also find time to come dive into this deeper. This is the discussion so far forwarded from the other thread where we kind of went off topic on which is why I brought it over here where it actually belongs since the discussion moved to materials, design and welding.
Why not? A nice radial arm saw with a metal cut off blade will make perfect cuts in square tubing when you will have to jump through the hoops to do round tubing. All you have to do is be smarter than the tubing and make the correct angle cuts before you "fold the last flat" and weld. Mating square is much easier than round, and it is stronger in a smaller profile size.
Would aerodynamics be the problem? Aesthetics? why not?
Would aerodynamics be the problem? Aesthetics? why not?
Without getting into it too much...
- Weaker than tube: Not quite true... 2" thickwall is just as strong or stronger as 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 lightwall round they use, especially at the weld points.
- Hangs up on stuff: Anything on the outside is going to hang up on stuff.
- Looks like utter crap: Anything on the outside is going to look odd and like crap. Who cares? it's meant to be functional and practical not eye pleasing. Just like Camouflage paint.
- Weaker than tube: Not quite true... 2" thickwall is just as strong or stronger as 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 lightwall round they use, especially at the weld points.
- Hangs up on stuff: Anything on the outside is going to hang up on stuff.
- Looks like utter crap: Anything on the outside is going to look odd and like crap. Who cares? it's meant to be functional and practical not eye pleasing. Just like Camouflage paint.
Originally Posted by Bugout4x4...
Without getting into it too much...
- Weaker than tube: Not quite true... 2" thickwall is just as strong or stronger as 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 lightwall round they use, especially at the weld points.
Typical tube used is 1.5" to 1.75" HREW or DOM, with DOM being better for exterior use due to it's better resilience to denting, etc. If you're thinking thickwall 2", you're in for one hell of a heavy exo. It reaches a point where you're protecting the body, but adding quite a bit of stress to the drivetrain. One thing I've learned through the phases of builds, it that full body guys tend to overbuild (I've been guilty of it), which in turn is a vicious cycle. The more you overbuild, the heavier it gets. The heavier it gets, the more reinforcement and drivetrain building you need to do. Before you know it, you've got a 6k lb. rig that has...issues...in areas.
If you have a whole bunch of 2" square box around, go for it. That being said, there's definitive reasons why you see tube, not square (in applications related to the chassis) in everything from KOH, Ultra4, Comp Crawling, Trophy Trucks, etc.
As far as weakness, as I'm sure you're aware, each weld creates a weakness due to the HAZ. While the weld itself is stronger, the material around the weld is weaker (more brittle). Getting the most nodes possible with the least amount of welding possible is what is ideal. Round tubing bends far better, and when bent and conformed doesn't create the stress risers from unnecessary weld areas. Building something out of box will results in quite a few miters, which in turn means a lot of welding, which in turn means lots of HAZ. Bending that size of box...nooooo thank you.
- Hangs up on stuff: Anything on the outside is going to hang up on stuff.
When it comes to the point of needed an exo, I've seen 9/10 of them get hung of on the exo somewhere. In a few cases, this resulted in some bent tube in order to make it through. When trails get tight and technical, every half in counts. Most of them walked away without and body damage, but not all. If you're talking 2" tube or box, that's 4" wider you've made yourself. There have been several times I wanted my buggy to be 6" or more narrower. All depends on your intentions.
- Looks like utter crap: Anything on the outside is going to look odd and like crap. Who cares? it's meant to be functional and practical not eye pleasing. Just like Camouflage paint.
To each their own
Without getting into it too much...
- Weaker than tube: Not quite true... 2" thickwall is just as strong or stronger as 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 lightwall round they use, especially at the weld points.
Typical tube used is 1.5" to 1.75" HREW or DOM, with DOM being better for exterior use due to it's better resilience to denting, etc. If you're thinking thickwall 2", you're in for one hell of a heavy exo. It reaches a point where you're protecting the body, but adding quite a bit of stress to the drivetrain. One thing I've learned through the phases of builds, it that full body guys tend to overbuild (I've been guilty of it), which in turn is a vicious cycle. The more you overbuild, the heavier it gets. The heavier it gets, the more reinforcement and drivetrain building you need to do. Before you know it, you've got a 6k lb. rig that has...issues...in areas.
If you have a whole bunch of 2" square box around, go for it. That being said, there's definitive reasons why you see tube, not square (in applications related to the chassis) in everything from KOH, Ultra4, Comp Crawling, Trophy Trucks, etc.
As far as weakness, as I'm sure you're aware, each weld creates a weakness due to the HAZ. While the weld itself is stronger, the material around the weld is weaker (more brittle). Getting the most nodes possible with the least amount of welding possible is what is ideal. Round tubing bends far better, and when bent and conformed doesn't create the stress risers from unnecessary weld areas. Building something out of box will results in quite a few miters, which in turn means a lot of welding, which in turn means lots of HAZ. Bending that size of box...nooooo thank you.
- Hangs up on stuff: Anything on the outside is going to hang up on stuff.
When it comes to the point of needed an exo, I've seen 9/10 of them get hung of on the exo somewhere. In a few cases, this resulted in some bent tube in order to make it through. When trails get tight and technical, every half in counts. Most of them walked away without and body damage, but not all. If you're talking 2" tube or box, that's 4" wider you've made yourself. There have been several times I wanted my buggy to be 6" or more narrower. All depends on your intentions.
- Looks like utter crap: Anything on the outside is going to look odd and like crap. Who cares? it's meant to be functional and practical not eye pleasing. Just like Camouflage paint.
To each their own
Well maybe not... Thinking back to when my best highschool friend and I built a whole subframe/rollcage for a Baja Bug body and bolted a front wheel drive Toronado V-8 and transaxle in the back of it.
This one I have already just might become a full frame and caged swamp (XJ shaped) buggy with XJ sheet on it. Now all that matters before drawing it up is where all the VIN numbers are stamped.
This one I have already just might become a full frame and caged swamp (XJ shaped) buggy with XJ sheet on it. Now all that matters before drawing it up is where all the VIN numbers are stamped.
Last edited by Bugout4x4; 11-23-2017 at 10:15 AM.
11-23-2017, 10:25 AM
#2338
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Originally Posted by roninofako
Stick is a no go, you'd be burning holes like crazy, haha
You could TIG it.
You could TIG it.
