vladpascu

Hi all, I've done a lot of work on this jeep, but I'm still having some issues / questions that I would like some help with.
I have replaced the following things:

• UCL and LCA + bushings
• Front sway bar bushings and end links
• All tie rods ends (from both steering knuckles, at pitman arm, and the one in the middle -- not sure how to call that one)
• Both passenger and driver U Joints in the front axle shaft
• All ball joints in at the steering knuckles
• Track Arm
• Front wheel hubs
• Rear and Front shocks

After doing all of this, plus getting an alignment, it is hard to turn the steering wheel while I have the front wheels jacked up, and off the ground. Is this normal? Unfortunately, I did not have the foresight to make a mental note how it was before I started working on it.
I have done some tests to narrow this issue down: I disconnected the steering stabilizer shock, and the steering wheel turned a bit more easily, but not by much. I disconnected the tie rod at the pitman arm, and the steering wheel was moving very very easy. After connecting everything back up again, I was trying to narrow down the issue to one of the steering knuckles. I disconnected the passenger tie rod, and the steering wheel was moving just as hard. The knuckle by itself moved as I was expecting -- smoothly, and with the resistance I was expecting from new ball joints. At this point a could also turn, by hand, the driver side steering knuckle with the same resistance.

Also, the steering wheel has a hard time returning to center after I make a turn. Could this be related to the above issue? It is slowly returning to center, but I was expecting it to be a bit quicker. The steering wheel also feels a bit sloppy -- I have to turn it quite a bit to make small adjustments going down the road, and sometimes it feels like it oversteers once I make the small adjustment. It also pulls slightly right. It feels a bit more unstable that I was expecting going over bumps at high speeds.

I know what you're thinking -- 'why didn't you replace the steering stabilizer shock while you were in there?' Well, because it looked and felt ok to me. It doesn't seem to leak, and it moves pretty hard. I have to push it in with all my might, or pull it out very hard. It does not extend by itself, usually it just stay put. Is this normal? The Jeep belongs to my girlfriend and she replaced the steering stabilizer about 4-5 years ago when she experienced the death wobbles. Before I started working on her car, she said that the stabilizer shock is probably ok, because she wasn't noticing the death wobbles. I'm not exactly sure what the death wobbles are, but going over bumps between 60-80 mph was a bit rough. Basically, I was fighting the steering wheel to go straight. Is this a jeep thing?

Thank you for reading my novel of a post. To recap, my questions are:

1. Is it normal for the steering wheel to turn with resistance while the front wheels are in the air?
2. What would cause the steering wheel to have a hard time returning to center?
3. Am I experiencing the death wobble while going over bumps at high speeds? and if so, should I replace the steering stabilizer shock?

Thanks you!

nickfancher1

vladpascu

yes. all ball joints were torqued to spec.

4.3L XJ

Sounds to me like yoiur steering box is adjusted too tight

vladpascu

I was researching that... if I loosen that screw will that introduce more slop in the steering wheel?

ShowMe Cherokee

No, that's not normal. It does sound like your steering gear is either too tight or gunked up. Could also be that your power steering pump is failing and not giving you enough assist. That is easy to replace at least since it is at the top of the engine. Might want to try flushing the system first before replacing.

Yes, if you start adjusting that screw it will likely add slop to your steering. Technically adjustment should be done on a bench and not on the Jeep. I just skipped it and replaced the steering gear with a Durango box.

Good luck!

Greg

4.3L XJ

If you loosen it too much, yes. It needs to be tight enough you don't have sloppy steering, but not so tight that the wheel is hard to turn. It should be tight enough to just make the pitman arm move immediately, but without too much resistance

vladpascu

Thank you for the replies.
Are you all sure it is the steering gear box? I did disconnect the tie rod end at the pitman arm, and the steering wheel was moving very easily. So easily, that it was almost moving by itself, trying to find its equilibrium position. So that is why I do not believe it is the steering gear box, but please tell me if I might be wrong.

I took the car back to the shop that did the alignment, and they told me its the new ball joints. They told me that they might need some time to brake in.
Attached is the alignment info. The shop told me that the caster is out of spec, but not by much and it shouldn't affect the steering wheel returning. The caster spec that their computer showed was 6.00 degrees with + or - 1.75 tolerance.
What do you all think? Should I just drive the jeep and see if they ball joints brake in? How much time / mileage would they need? What should I do if the problem doesn't improve? new ball joints? find another shop to look at the alignment?

Thank you!

ShowMe Cherokee

I don't believe that alignment is your issue here.

Is your power steering fluid full? Dirty? Air bubbles? Pump or line leaking? If your pump isn't working correctly or you are losing pressure that could certainly make it hard to steer.

vladpascu

Yes, the fluid looks pretty dirty, it is full, no air bubbles that I can see in the reservoir, pump does not appear to leak. There is oil residue on one line, but I do not believe it is PS fluid -- the fluid in the reservoir seems to stay constant, and the dirty line is right below the CCV line that goes to the air filter box. That item is on my list of things to fix.

My main concern is not that the steering wheel is hard to turn (that's just something I noticed while the car was on jack stands), its the fact that the steering wheel doesn't return to center after a turn. I do not believe that has anything to do with the PS system? But you do bring up a good point. I'll have to add this on my to do list. I'll just replace the fluid, and try do do a flush.

Thanks!

Jeepwalker

They're right, the correct way to adjust is off the vehicle, on the bench, to about 6-10 inch lbs as you ROTATE the input shaft over center. But other specs I've read for GM boxes had an even higher number. That's actually a pretty wide range. If you try to adjust a power steering box until there's NO play at the input shaft you'll for sure overtighten it. The reason is b/c it *requires* a little 'play' at the input shaft because the input shaft is a split shaft (two shafts) ..the upper portion being the actual valve assembly which fits over the Worm assembly (see pic below). The little bit of 'play' on the upper shaft valve assembly represents the valving mechanism which ports assisting hydraulic pressure to one side or the other of the assisting servo inside the box. It's important to understand that w/o the slight amount of play at the input shaft the valve can't port fluid as engineered. When I was a kid I didn't understand this and also used to over-tighten power steering boxes (I probably ruined a couple). The correct way to adjust a steering box is on a bench in a vise first the pre-load, then the input shaft rotating resistance ideally with an in/lbs wrench. (about the resistance if you squeezed a 9/16" socket as tight as you could while rotating with a standard 3/8" ratchet with the other hand).

You could probably tighten the steering box on the vehicle if you had the steering link removed and the intermediate shaft off. A 12pt socket might fit over the input shaft. But the best would be to remove it and put it on the bench, loosen the ball/nut adjustment, adjust the pre-load ...then the ball/nut. I recently took off my 4x4 '89 Chevy tk steering box due to slop in the steering. Thinking after 265k miles it was probably loose and needed adjustment ...it wasn't! It was still at dead nuts spec! The problem was actually excessive slop at the rag joint and slip joint in the intermediate shaft. It was difficult to see until I put a vice grip at the input shaft and had someone rotate the steering wheel. I installed a new rag joint and intermediate shaft and steering is tight again ...drives great! It's the second high-mileage steering box I've seen that was right on spec and no noticeable lower bearing wear (but problems elsewhere in the steering). A lot of people, including myself at times, tend to blame the steering boxes when other wear items are, in fact, the problem. Running large tires are harder on the steering gear and they do wear out too, often the lower output shaft area. They can be rebuilt.

Hey ....Good luck!

Jeepwalker

Here's a basic tutorial on rebld/adjustment on a Jeep box:

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/atta...ed-view_sm.jpg

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/atta...d-specs_sm.jpg

vladpascu

Thanks Jeepwalker! I'm a little hesitant to mess with the gear steering box. But we'll see. My plan is to flush the PS fluid, and drive the car for a bit so the new ball joints brake in. If that doesn't fix the steering issue, I'll start looking at the steering gear box.

Jeepwalker

No problem. It probably got lost in everything else, but I was also trying to suggest:
1) Be careful not to over-tighten the steering gear adjustment screw
2) Just because it's old doesn't necessarily mean it's 'worn out' or even sloppy, per 'se. Problem might lie elsewhere.
3) Also, when you have someone go back/fourth with the wheel (just an in or two at the steering wheel) check the output shaft of the steering box for any subtle 'play' at the pitman arm and shaft at the box.
4) Also inspect intermediate steering shaft u-joints for 'play'. Put a vice grips at the bottom of the shaft, hold tight against the frame and have someone move the steering wheel. Any little wear at those u-joints will have a big impact on steering slop.

Good luck..