Got the misfire figures out... Really need advice on how to proceed.
 

Well, the news came down today... and it's not good news at all.

If you've been following my problems with my 2000 xj, then great.

I took it to the shop that rebuilt the motor, after the one that installed it misdiagnosed my misfire that started less than 3000 miles after paying a buttload of money for my motor rebuild. They had diagnosed it as the coil pack, which it wasn't, and when I asked them to take another look, they wanted to charge me another $85 in diagnostics, since I didn't want to pay them an outrageous amount of money to buy and bolt on a new coil pack.

Turns out that the shop that installed the motor did not get the timing right, and therefore since I've had it back (since october), it has been dumping fuel into the motor, destroying what I paid to have rebuilt and also destroying the camshaft.

Of course, they won't own up to such a thing.

The owner of the offending shop, swears up and down that if it were dumping enough fuel to do that in under 3000 miles, I would have known. Swears that I would have smelled gas, and that my engine light would have been on since the get-go, and my truck's cat would have been glowing red after a trip. Also swears that since it's a distributorless ignition that they weren't responsible for any sort of timing, and places the blame squarely back on the shop that actually rebuilt the motor. However, I happen to know that there is an adjustment on the passenger side of the motor for just such a thing (I believe that's where it is in an XJ), and upon installation that should have been something they double checked.

He also had the audacity to also tell me that it's partly my fault because I "took it to too many shops." And, after telling me that they would have rediagnosed it for free had they actually misdiagnosed the problem, and me telling him that his employee told me I would be recharged... He changed his story and says, "Well, yeah... In that case since we didn't purchase the part or install it, yeah, we'd have to recharge you."

At which point I mentioned that his employee offered to install the USED pack, that I picked up at no cost when we showed up and asked if it would be ok for us to just bolt it on the in parking lot, and that I had his employee clear the code after it was installed... Which prompted him to ask me if we had cleared the code with the vehicle on or off. When I told him I was unsure, and that I was in the building at the time because I was pregnant and it was freezing, he decided that didn't actually matter when the code was cleared.

He was also stuck on the coil pack being the source of the misfire, and "something must have been burning your coil pack up causing the misfire." Bull.

He also had the gull to accuse the shop that has it torn apart of damaging my camshaft on purpose just to blame them for the misfire, because he knew I was going to ask if I brought pictures of it to them if he'd believe me. Then he told me that since they tore it apart without calling me to authorize such measures (I authorized diagnostics!), that I should tell them I'll report them to the state if they don't either put it back together for no additional cost other than the initial $40 diag fee, or fix it for free. What an ***.

Now, the shop that rebuilt it, and currently has it torn apart (again), feels sorry for me and will do the repairs for the cost of parts and enough to pay the mechanic. $500. They are basically cleaning up another shop's mess.

However, he won't stand behind me with a written statement of what was found.. Because they send him motors to rebuild and he doesn't want to lose business.

I have contacted my boss, as her boyfriend is one of the very top defense attorneys in the state, and I'm going to see if he can assist me on this. I'm ready to take this to court.

I'm going to give them one more chance to make things right without involving a lawyer, but if the lawyer thinks I have a case, and they don't own up to their mistake... I will pursue legal action, as I now have a $500 repair bill as a direct result of their negligence.

This dude, in an attempt to prove whatever, even admitted to me that he once FORGOT TO PUT OIL IN A CUSTOMER'S CAR AND BLEW UP HIS ENGINE, which he fixed because he did it... OKAY, if you can forget friggin' OIL how much you wanna bet your guy forgot to FREAKING TIME THE MOTOR.

So, yeah, now I have a rebuilt motor that now needs another partial rebuild less than 3000 miles later, and a junked camshaft.

Wonderful.

How can I get this douche to own up and take responsibility?

I may be calling Fox 2 Problem Solvers on this one as well.

So sorry to hear this. I'm not sure about the "timing" on a DIS engine, so I'll let others comment on that.

Yes, the installer sounds like a prick, while the rebuilder sounds like a decent guy.

I think you're on the right track with taking legal action against this low-life. I think many people today are way too "sue happy", but in this case, it sounds like it's justified. Keep us posted.

there is no timing adjustment on a dis vehicle. the timing the guy who tore your motor apart is talking about is the crank to camshaft timing, in which case if this was off you should have gotten a crank to camshaft timing code. This timing is not adjusted or checked by the installer as it is behind the timing cover. It sounds more like the motor wasn't assembled correctly, or got a faulty camshaft.

That would be the timing I'm talking about. Someone screwed up and no one wants to honor my warranty.

That was my first thought, too, but then why would the rebuilder say that caused an overly rich mixture? Hmmm...

With the timeing overly retarded the valves will open and close and the wrong time. So The engine won't suck in as much air, but the injector will still inject the same amount of fuel. The computer will adjust for this somewhat with readings from the 02 sensor and map sensor, but theres only so much fuel the computer can pull.
But, if the timing is so far off that there isn't a complete burn and causing a misfire, the raw fuel will blow past the rings and dillute the oil. Dilluted oil can cause premature wear on engines, especially camshafts.
Like i said, it sounds like the engine builder messed up. I'm not sure who is who in your story, as there aren't any names, and i got lost rather quickly. I'm also not sure why you didn't go with a jasper engine or such with a 100k warranty.
So to get this straight, the engine builder is a local shop, and the engine installer is a different shop, but also local? So the installer got the engine from the local engine builder? did you supply the motor or did he supply the motor?

Exactly what the rebuilder of the motor told me. Both shops are local. I didn't get a Jasper motor because I just could not afford it. This was the only affordable option for me at the time. And with the Jeep needing a new motor there is no way I could sell it and get what I need to get out of it for another decent vehicle. The motor that was rebuilt, was the original motor that was in the Jeep.

I kind of feel like an *** right now. Because I went back and read my Haynes manual. In the manual it states, the camshaft position sensor is located on the top of the oil pump drive assembly. It is possible to replace the camshaft position sensor without removing the oil pump drive assembly. If the oil pump drive assembly must be removed, the mounting flange must be precisely marked in relation to the engine block or it will be necessary to reset the camshaft position sensor with a scan tool.

So, basically what it sounds like to me is the person who rebuilt the engine screwed up not the shop that installed it.

I don't know if it would do any good to show up at the shop with Haynes manual in hand and show them the paragraph I just read. that paragraph alone tells me that the rebuilder didn't do that and that would have been something that should have been done when the motor was rebuilt not when installed.

So, someone did screw up. But nobody wants to honor the warranty.

But wait... Doesn't the timing have to be set with the vehicle running? So.. Then the installer would be at fault?

What a mess. Basically, if the installer "sub-contracted" the rebuild to the other shop, he's still responsible for it. It's like if you have a general contractor build a house, he's going to sub out the plumbing, electrical, etc, but in the end, you write one big check to the general. He has the final responsibility if a sub didn't do something right, and then he can later go after that sub. It shouldn't be your job to do the legwork running between the two of them. I understand, though, that you just want to get your Jeep running!

I'm not sure what to make of the whole timing thing. The crank-to-cam timing is a mechanical thing, set by the installation of the timing set. If it was messed up, yes it would run poorly, but it would do it from the start. IOW, it isn't going to go from great to barely running all by itself over the course of a couple months. Also, I've been thinking about the mixture thing; if the computer can't adjust the mixture into range, it's going to throw a code, and it's not going to take months. There's no way it could be running so rich as to do major damage, yet not throw a code. I wish I knew more about the cam pos sensor, and what all it affects, but I have no experience with the DIS 4.0.

I just keep going back to the fact that you said it ran so well after the rebuild...

Youre correct. It should have thrown a bank 1 rich code and the fuel trims would be way negative. Ive been thinking about this whole camshaft thing and i dont see how a camshaft would get damaged in 3k miles. Sounds like the cam was damaged on the originL motor and the cam wasnt replaced due to funds. A diluted motor would ruin bearings before it would damage a new cam. Also, like i said it would through a cam position fault code or a crank to cam corrilation code if the.timing was so far off.

Looks like plenty of blame to go around.

1st: Both the rebuilder and the installer should (read must) have had and used a current and legal copy of the 2000 XJ Cherokee Factory Service Manual to go by when rebuilding the engine and for use in its subsequent intallation.

* Find out from the rebuilder what data he used to rebuild the engine.

* Find out from the installer what data he used for the installation.

2nd: I assume it was the rebuilder that determined the camshaft was damaged. And it was he that determined it was fuel being dumped into the engine oil that destroyed the camshaft. Correct?

* How did the rebuilder determine there was fuel being "dumped" into the engine oil that caused the cam to be destroyed? By "destroyed" does that mean the cam lobes were wiped out?

3rd: The rebuilder is responsible for applying Assembly Lube to the camshaft lobes at assembly, whether you had a new camshaft, new lifters, or both installed. (Old lifters are not to be installed on a new camshaft but new lifters can be installed with a used camshaft).

* Find out from the rebuilder if the camshaft was new or used, and were new lifters installed or were used lifetrs installed. Did he use Assembly Lube on the camshaft lobes at assembly.

4th: The installer would be responsible for preoiling the engine after install, and filling the crankcase with break-in oil prior to operating the engine. The installer would then be responsible for performing the camshaft break-in procedures, which basically involves initially operatng the engine at 3,000 RPM for 30 minutes, then draining the break-in oil out of the crankcase then replenishing it with mineral based oil.

* Find out from the installer if he preoiled the engine, and how he preoiled the engine, which is normally accomplished by using a preoiler drive rod on the oil pump drive shaft placed through the oil pump drive assembly aperture in the block, and driving the rod with an electric drill motor until oil is seen coming out of the rockers and oil pressure is indicated.

* Find out from the installer whether he performed the camshaft break-in procedure, using break-in oil in the crankcase.

5th: The rebuilder may, or may not, have installed the oil pump drive (OPD) assembly and the camshaft position sensor (CMP) on the drive before delivery to the installer. If the rebuilder did install the OPD and CMP before delivery he would have been responsible for using the FSM procedures for the installation. If he didn't install the OPD and CMP, the installer would be responsible for installing them per the FSM procedures. If the rebuilder installed the OPD and CMP before delivery, the installer would have had to remove the OPD inorder to preoil the engine, then reinstall it per the FSM procedures.

* Find out from the rebuilder if he installed the OPD and CMP prior to delivery to the installer, and if so, did he use the FSM produes.

* Find out from the installer if the OPD and CMP was installed by the rebuilder or did he install the OPD and CMP. If he inatalled them, did he use the FSM procedures.

6th: It would be the responsiblity of the owner to have the CMP timed using a DRBIII tool, which is normally done at the dealer. If the OPD and CMP were initially installed per the FSM, the engine would run, but not perfectly, until the DRBIII tool was used to fine tune the CMP timing.

Note: I've posted the FSM procedures for the OPD and CMP at the bottom of this post. Note also that the CMP is a sync generator. It's signals to the PCM are used inconjunction with the crankshaft position sensor to synchronize the fuel injectors with their respective cylinders. The CMP/PCM can only have the fuel injection system deliver fuel within the predetermined values set in the PCM. Under normal operation of the CMP and PCM, to go beyond those values to the point of the injectors "dumping" fuel in the crankcase is not within the realm of possibility. There have been cases where an injector was stuck open and after engine shut-down residual fuel, under pressure in the fuel rail, was dumped into the respective cylinder, past the piston rings and into the crankcase, diluting the engine oil and causing bearing damage. I think if the oil was diluted that bad the crankshaft bearings, connecting rod bearings, and camshaft bearings would get wiped out before the camshaft lobes would be affected. You'd know it if the bearings were wiped out.

My thoughts concerning a destoryed camshaft are:

1. The rebuilder installed used lifeters on a new cam (doubtful) or he didn't use assembly lube on the camshaft lobes (also doubtful), or

2. The installer didn't perform the camshaft break-in procedures using break-in oil.

You may want to get some answers from the rebuilder and the installer, as posted above, before getting a lawyer. You may want to remind them that the answers they give you will also be asked under oath in a court of law.

Edit: FYI, here's a common camshaft break-in procedure. http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/breakin/548e.pdf







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That is some very useful info. Thank you.

There was damage done to the motor at this point as well as the camshaft.
Looks like I have plenty of questions to ask.

What other damage?

okay, talked to the shop that has the Jeep. Apparently the camshaft is definitely worn but they can't tell me how many lobes at this point until we get it out of the car. he also has yet to tell me what parts in the motor will now need to be replaced again.

I did ask who is responsible for removing the oil pump drive assembly and the camshaft position sensor. Apparently, those were removed prior to the engine being shipped to the rebuilder according to the rebuilder. so, the installer was responsible for those parts, but didn't know what I was talking about when I asked him. He was unsure of whether they had those parts or not prior to the installation.. when I asked the installer about proper break in procedures, the guy laughed at me and acted like I didn't know what I was talking about concerning the oil in the crankcase and then draining that and adding the mineral based oil.

the installer still swears at the camshaft position sensor and oil pump drive assembly could not have possibly caused this problem.

he keeps going back to it must have been the coil pack that caused everything that went on.

he did admit that he can't give me too much information, because he was not there when the motor was pulled or when it was installed. And the guy that was there, is on vacation so he can't get any answers for me until he returns to work.

I have contacted a lawyer, and he does believe that I have a case. However I still feel like I need to find out who should be held responsible.

I will be requesting that any parts that need replacement, will be handed back to me in a box.

It sounds like the installer is giving you a run around on doing the camshaft break-in procedures. I'm sure that coward wouldn't laugh at a man if he were asking the questions.

I would let them know in no uncertain terms that what they say and laugh at will be brought to the attention of the court.

That rebuilder must give you a complete list of what is wrong with the engine before he replaces the parts. This buddy-buddy BS he has going on with the installer has to come to an end. YOU are his customer, not the installer.

Print off a copy of this thread so you can study it and have it handy when you talk to these people again.

Keep in touch.

The installer actually asked me if i could get someone i know with the exact same Jeep to come to the shop and let them mess with their Jeep to prove a point! I told him that wasn't going to happen.