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Stock XJ Cherokee Tech. All XJ Non-modified/stock questions go hereXJ (84-01)
All OEM related XJ specific tech. Examples, no start, general maintenance or anything that's stock.
It sounds to me like the odds are against you having a solid engine. 20k with coolant loss, failing a combustion test, oil level rising, milky oil. I would plan for a new engine at this point, but as mentioned by another member you could have an oil analysis done. That will give you a total breakdown of what is in your used oil. Blackstone is about $30 now, and pulling the sample is pretty easy. Get the engine to full operating temperature, drain the oil and about halfway through the drain fill the supplied container with oil and send it to them and wait for the results.
So if you're still thinking about going this route, there's 3 critical things you're going to need:
Tools
Information
Skilz
Do you have a good set of tools? And that means not HFT.
A simple Google search and this forum should be able to provide all the information you need, but get the service manual https://cdn.xjjeeps.com/pdf/en-us/20...ice-manual.pdf and I have an extra Haynes Manual if you want.
Acquiring skilz takes time, but keep an open mind when attacking problems and think before you act. IMO it would most helpful to learn everything there is to know about nuts and bolts. How to remove them w/o snapping them, what to do if you do snap them, which bolts you can lean on and not worry (10.8s) and which ones break if you look at them wrong, which need torque wrenches (ft or in-lbs.), when to use 6 pt. sockets (always, unless you can't), use of PB Blaster and heat...
I suppose all information is good information, but if you're really short on coin instead of getting the trendy Blackstone report for $30 I'd spend $28 and get an oil pan gasket and and a Plastigage set. Yank the pan (p. 9-107 in the service manual)(they say pull the engine mount bolts, you can also droop (yes droop) the front axle) check the bottom for debris and pull a couple of rod caps. Inspect them and check clearance. If they're fine you've just saved $5750.00.
IMO working on Jeeps is more fun than driving them, the skilz you gain will save you literally tens of thousands of dollars over your lifetime, and the reward of personal accomplishment is what life is is all about.
I don't believe burning a small amount of antifreeze hurts anything (BTW since it's been doing it since you got it it might not be 20K it could be 140K). All it does is clean the spark plugs. That said, it won't be 6 spark plugs, it's only going to be 1 or 2. Pull them, mark the cylinder numbers and examine them. The clean ones will be where the gasket is blown or head cracked.
After you clean the pudding out and put in new oil, check compression. If it's fine (betting $2.00 that it is) no worries re: cylinder wear.
BTW2 collecting a sample for Blackstone requires running the engine and sending the pudding back up into the engine. Bad idea. Results won't be accurate anyway cause your crankcase volume is God-knows-what.
I don't believe burning a small amount of antifreeze hurts anything (BTW since it's been doing it since you got it it might not be 20K it could be 140K). All it does is clean the spark plugs. That said, it won't be 6 spark plugs, it's only going to be 1 or 2. Pull them, mark the cylinder numbers and examine them. The clean ones will be where the gasket is blown or head cracked.
After you clean the pudding out and put in new oil, check compression. If it's fine (betting $2.00 that it is) no worries re: cylinder wear.
BTW2 collecting a sample for Blackstone requires running the engine and sending the pudding back up into the engine. Bad idea. Results won't be accurate anyway cause your crankcase volume is God-knows-what.
Thanks for all the advice, I am going to change the oil and take a look at the spark plugs today. I assume it wouldn't matter which order I do those in would it? And how would I go about checking the compression after I change the oil?
Would it be worth saving the old oil for any type of analysis?
If this helps at all this is the oil level before I touch anything. It has been in the car for about 1200 miles.
It may depending on what is blown, cracked, etc. It could end up leaking into the crankcase and the effort to get it cleaned up would be for naught (assuming we're still trying to make an effort to save this engine).
If we're writing this thing off then don't waste money on oil and antifreeze.
That said, there is nothing KNOWN here other than you need a head gasket. The head could be OK or maybe it got changed out to a TUPY already. If we're going to make an assumption, IMO the assumption to make is the crank and cam bearings are OK until proven otherwise. I mean, we're talking a difference of $250 to $6000 here.
Here are a couple more pictures I'll add in case it helps at all. The first one I can actually see antifreeze pooling on the top of one of the bolts in the engine..
The pictures help. I am disheartened to see what appears to be a significant amount of antifreeze mixed with oil on top of the head. That and the fact that the oil level is maybe approaching a quart high on the dip stick. Assuming your oil level would have been at full or a little below what I see seems to indicate maybe 20% antifreeze and 80% oil in the engine. Antifreeze/water is a lousy lubricant for an engine. And some of the water in the antifreeze would have evaporated as the engine ran.
Dave has given you good advice but I don’t have much hope for this engine, especially the bearings. And with that much oil dilution any wear surface, including cylinder walls, is at risk if it ran for more than a short time. The engine has suffered from accelerated wear, no question about it. A full picture of how much is unknown unless significant disassembly is undertaken. To address cam bearings the cam shaft has to be removed from the front of the engine, which normally involves disassembly of a portion of the front of the vehicle to have room to get the cam shaft out. Cam wear is especially of interest as I believe oil from the head runs down onto the cam bearings to lubricate them.
When you drain the oil save a half a cups worth should you decide an oil analysis is something you want to do. Try to capture the sample about mid-way through the drain process. The collection bottle should be clean and avoid getting crud in it as you remove it from under the vehicle. The oil does not have to be circulated prior to doing that. Just let the analysis company know how you did the sample. And the amount of antifreeze/oil in the engine is not a show stopper either as for the analysis they look at parts per million or various elements in the oil. It is a ratio so if you have one gallon or 10 gallons of oil it should not matter. By the way, Blackstone Labs will send you sample bottles at no cost.
You ask how to identify a TUPY head. Normally you can see “TUPY” cast into the head between cylinders 3 & 4, usually visible looking straight down into the oil fill cap. With all the crud in there the valve cover might have to come off to clean up the gunk and get a better view. Here is a good link with photos on identification of a TUPY head. https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/...upy-head.8112/
youll see that we also had to tackle a headgasket/cracked head issue in the fall.
its not hard to do and i took lots of pictures that hopefully can give you some guidance
also clearwater cylinder heads will do you right .
The oil does not have to be circulated prior to doing that.
And the amount of antifreeze/oil in the engine is not a show stopper either as for the analysis they look at parts per million or various elements in the oil. It is a ratio so if you have one gallon or 10 gallons of oil it should not matter.
This is why I think it's a waste of $30:
First, the concentration will be inaccurate because you've changed the dilution. You suddenly have added 2 quarts (Or more. Or less) of antifreeze. So your numbers might be off ~40%.
Second, and most importantly, we must differentiate between dissolved and particulate metals. An unmixed mid-stream sample might have dissolved metal, but since we're dealing with a sudden catastrophic event we are more concerned with particulate matter. If his engine is toast as some people suggest, there is going to be metal dust (hopefully nothing bigger) in the bottom of the pan. I suppose you could get a feel for this (so to speak) by sticking your finger in there and seeing if there's metal sludge (depending on the size of your finger). But IMO we have to pull the head and yank the oil pan. If the bottom of the pan and the rod bearings look good and there wasn't any noise when running last, I think just a head change will be a viable solution.
Despite this being a catastrophic event it doesn't sound like the crank or cam bearings would be damaged, but if the pan is off this would also be a good time to put in a new oil pump (and consider a higher volume pump). It is not clear if the oil pressure was low or WNL from the beginning of the thread, but low oil pressure does not always equate to need new camshaft bearings.
Bottom line, pull it apart and get a good assessment.
youll see that we also had to tackle a headgasket/cracked head issue in the fall.
its not hard to do and i took lots of pictures that hopefully can give you some guidance
also clearwater cylinder heads will do you right .
Uriah, I must sincerely apologize as after reading XwalkerX's thread I have realized that I have omitted a critical item.
Clearly, having a Fox to help you in your project would all but guarantee success.
Cam wear is especially of interest as I believe oil from the head runs down onto the cam bearings to lubricate them.
Cam bearings have a hole to receive oil from the gallery:
Originally Posted by manual
The pump draws oil through the screen and inlet tube from the sump at the rear of the oil pan. The oil is driven between the drive and idler gears and pump body, then forced through the outlet to the block. An oil gallery in the block channels the oil to the inlet side of the full flow oil filter. After passing through the filter element, the oil passes from the center outlet of the filter through an oil gallery that channels the oil up to the main gallery which extends the entire length of the block. Galleries extend downward from the main oil gallery to the upper shell of each main bearing. The crankshaft is drilled internally to pass oil from the main bearing journals (except number 4 main bearing journal) to the connecting rod journals. Each connecting rod bearing cap has a small squirt hole, oil passes through the squirt hole and is thrown off as the rod rotates. This oil throwoff lubricates the camshaft lobes, distributor drive gear, cylinder walls, and piston pins. The hydraulic valve tappets receive oil directly from the main oil gallery. Oil is provided to the camshaft bearing through galleries. The front camshaft bearing journal passes oil through the camshaft sprocket to the timing chain. Oil drains back to the oil pan under the number one main bearing cap. The oil supply for the rocker arms and bridged pivot assemblies is provided by the hydraulic valve tappets which pass oil through hollow push rods to a hole in the corresponding rocker arm. Oil from the rocker arm lubricates the valve train components, then passes down through the push rod guide holes in the cylinder head past the valve tappet area, and returns to the oil pan.
IMO the great majority of cam bearing problems occur from severe sustained overheating. Then they kinda weld themselves to the camshaft and "spin".
I'm still thinking that this could be a $250 (relatively) easy job, with the aforementioned checks. If the rod bearings are good, the crank bearings should be good. And we can still pull off a or all the mains to check crank bearings (as an aside I'm surprised that Uriah hasn't asked "Hey, if I've got all the old rod bearings out why don't I just put in new ones?"). And if those bearings are good I think it's a safe bet the cam bearings are fine.
Anyway let's go back to the original post. We're operating on a very tight budget here, a somewhat limited skill set and an engine with 200K. If we can get a good head at a good price and the engine blows up 100 miles later (IT WON'T!) we can still sell the head and be out only a minimal amount of money. So sure the best answer from a purely mechanical point of view is let's get a new long block and have have someone install it but from a practical point of view that might not be possible.
If this helps at all this is the oil level before I touch anything. It has been in the car for about 1200 miles.
Y'know, to me, that just looks like plain ol' oil. I can read at least the "SA" so there's some degree of transparency. Take a picture of it once you get it into the pan. Doesn't make sense about the overfill, but we're still in information-gathering mode.
03-05-2019, 09:33 PM
