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do people tend to forget the early days when HID's didn't have projectors? or am i the only one that ever thinks about them? The thing people need to remember if they do the autopal/hella/whoever and put HID's in them you need to aim them correctly. if you are going form a halogen to the HID's you need to AIM them. its too easy to take the extra 15-20 mins to aim them where you get great light output and you wont be causing issues with other drivers. also DO NOT GET ANYTHING OVER 6000K.
It's NOT just a matter of aim. Halogen housings are designed to reflect light sourced from a filament. HID's are a VERY different light source, and the end result of using halogen optics to reflect HID light will not be an efficient or safe use of light no matter how you aim it.
A halogen bulb has a cylindrical light source: the glowing filament. The space immediately surrounding the cylinder of light is completely dark, and so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is along the edges of the cylinder of light. The ends of the filament cylinder fade from bright to dark. An HID bulb, on the other hand, has a crescent-shaped light source -- the arc. It's crescent-shaped because as it passes through the space between the two electrodes, its heat causes it to try to rise. The space immediately surrounding the crescent of light glows in layers...the closer to the crescent of light, the brighter the glow. The ends of the arc crescent are the brightest points, and immediately beyond these points is completely dark, so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is at the ends of the crescent of light.
This diagram shows the very different characteristics of the filament vs. the arc:
When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the characteristics of the light source are the driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses: You can probably make them fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.
You're talking about HIDs in a housing designed specifically for HIDs by major auto manufacturers with millions of dollars in research and development. Hardly comparable to the eBay and other aftermarket H4 housings that are available to us. And even those factory reflectors weren't great which is why they switched to projectors. People talk about aiming them like it's the magic key to make it all work. So you bundle a housing with a optically non compatible bulb, aim it at the ground close to the front of the vehicle and it's supposed to be a great lighting upgrade? Come on guys...
I think he was saying to aim the lights down Bc they are so much brighter and most of us put them on a lifted jeep. They lights are aimed to the stock specs not the specs of the lifted vehicle which causes you to blind other drivers unless you adjust the angle.
who is daniel stern and what exactly are his credentials? ive seen people quote this dude that has addresses on site from Canada to DC. when you go to read about them/him i see nothing for credentials. yeah he has links to laws and regulations and blah blah but the way everyone wants to put the dude on a pedestal you would think there would be more. Ive taken everything i have read on that site ever since i first saw it pop up with a grain of salt. ill continue doing my lighting upgrades as i see fit and taking the extra time to setup/aim everything to where i am not blinding others but am not suffering myself.
who is daniel stern and what exactly are his credentials? ive seen people quote this dude that has addresses on site from Canada to DC. when you go to read about them/him i see nothing for credentials. yeah he has links to laws and regulations and blah blah but the way everyone wants to put the dude on a pedestal you would think there would be more. Ive taken everything i have read on that site ever since i first saw it pop up with a grain of salt. ill continue doing my lighting upgrades as i see fit and taking the extra time to setup/aim everything to where i am not blinding others but am not suffering myself.
He has been a lighting consultant for many years having even worked with/against government agencies to develop/reform lighting regulations. Everything he writes is written well, grounded in science and cites sources when applicable, so you need not know who he is to verify his claims if you have any scientific skill/understanding. He deserves the pedestal he is put on. He didn't just put himself there, he earned it and was put there by the thousands of people he has advised.
The reflected HID's your refer to were in reflector optics that were designed for HID bulbs. That is NOT the same as reflectors designed for halogen bulbs, and you shouldn't need to be a rocket scientist to understand why that is important. There is also good reason HID's are not found in anything but projectors anymore.
P.S. I'm sure if you contacted Mr. Stern, he'd happily provide a list of his credentials for you. Or are you afraid of being confronted with irrefutable proof that he is the real deal making it much harder for you to deny all of the things that debunk or otherwise conflict with your own lighting mods and unscientific beliefs like thinking that HID bulbs in halogen optics is OK as long as you just aim the whole thing down a bunch?
He has been a lighting consultant for many years having even worked with/against government agencies to develop/reform lighting regulations. Everything he writes is written well, grounded in science and cites sources when applicable, so you need not know who he is to verify his claims if you have any scientific skill/understanding. He deserves the pedestal he is put on. He didn't just put himself there, he earned it and was put there by the thousands of people he has advised.
The reflected HID's your refer to were in reflector optics that were designed for HID bulbs. That is NOT the same as reflectors designed for halogen bulbs, and you shouldn't need to be a rocket scientist to understand why that is important. There is also good reason HID's are not found in anything but projectors anymore.
P.S. I'm sure if you contacted Mr. Stern, he'd happily provide a list of his credentials for you. Or are you afraid of being confronted with irrefutable proof that he is the real deal making it much harder for you to deny all of the things that debunk or otherwise conflict with your own lighting mods and unscientific beliefs like thinking that HID bulbs in halogen optics is OK as long as you just aim the whole thing down a bunch?
Where and what government agencies is this you're referring to? Also are you familiar with how consulting for the government goes? As far as my scientific skill/understanding well i have experimented and tried different setups so its enough for me(trail and error is working just fine). What exactly is the good reason those HID's are not like that anymore? If it was safety reasons surely the car makers would have recalled them. I honestly have no interest in contacting Mr. Stern as I'm not one of the people that is always using him as the almighty reference. Actually i don't aim my setups down a bunch. More time is spent making sure the beam is being thrown out in front of me not into other lanes or up where it is not useful on the road. I will admit that since this XJ is higher then my last i did have to aim this setup down a little more.
Some heavy reading here and an example of Mr. Stern's interaction with NHTSA which had mixed results as I understand it--typical bureaucracy. Lots of really yummy science with lots of source citations as well. For anyone who is not allergic to reading, there is a lot to be learned in here.
P.S. A link to the proper method for aiming headlights is in my original post. No guesswork. No trial-and-error. If you cannot aim your headlights using that method, then your headlights cannot be properly aimed [period]
Originally Posted by mschi772
Aim Them Properly
The next most important thing is aim. Improperly aimed headlights waste light and can endanger oncoming traffic. So many drivers never aim their headlights. They assume that they're aimed correctly from the factory and that aim never changes or needs to be adjusted. Or maybe they assume that their mechanic checks and adjusts aim for them. Or maybe they just never think about it at all. Aim does need to be checked and readjusted periodically, and, no, your mechanic does NOT do this for you unless specifically asked. If you get new headlights, you should check and readjust your aim. If alter your suspension in any way, you should check your aim (because your entire XJ may not be "aimed" the same as before). If you're going on a long trip with a lot of cargo and/or a trailer, readjust your aim because that weight might be enough to tilt your headlights too high. Heck, pothole hits, fender-benders, or a particularly rough day of wheeling can throw your aim off. Aiming your headlights is extremely easy to do. Instructions that work for any vehicle can be found HERE
I honestly have no interest in contacting Mr. Stern as I'm not one of the people that is always using him as the almighty reference.
You should have interest. You claim to be interested in this subject, and you also expressed interest in knowing his credentials since you see him cited often. The fact that his stance conflicts with that of your own should make you even more interested in knowing if he's the real deal or not and/or if you should reevaluate some of your practices/advice.
Since you did not contact him, I did--not just because of you but because I was curious if I'd learn anything about him, too. He responded to my request within 2 hours...on a Saturday. He sent me a copy of his CV. I'm even more impressed by him than before not simply because of his credentials but because of his attitude and customer service (I bought my Cibies and a DRL module from him). This is the kind of guy we should all want to be doing business with. Stop looking for excuses to avoid/ignore him--guys like this are hard to find these days.
I also got some comments from Dan regarding Truck-lite and JW Speaker (specifically about how they do or don't handle snow/ice) which was a nice bonus to the correspondence.
Truck-Lite recently released versions of their lamps with
heater grids(!) in the lens. The JWS product doesn't require
this because they thought about the thermal transport issue
a little more holistically (perhaps because they're in
Wisconsin and...duh!). Also the JWS lamp, especially the new
"Evolution" version just released, gives a very much nicer
beam pattern. Objectively the Truck-Lite lamp is good, but
its beam pattern (in the US version) contains "artifacts"
(streaks and spots) that are distracting as they dance
around on the road when you drive. Some drivers seem to
manage to ignore these easier than others. The beam pattern
from the European-code version of the Truck-Lite is very
much smoother.
Thank you for posting all of this information. There is so much MISinformation floating around on these forums that it's nice to finally have things substantiated with specific and direct references.
I'm a light nut, and a member of www.candlepowerforums.com. I've been collecting high-end LED flashlights for about 8 years, have had over 65 different units, and currently have about 20 in my collection. Everything from Nichia to Philips Rebel to Cree Q5 up to the latest Cree XM-L U2. My current EDC is a 4Sevens Quark QPA Pro, and the "searchlight" I keep in my XJ is a Nightcore EA41.
I have also done the Putco/Autopal/Philips Xtreme H4 upgrade, and ran it for over two years. It was a definite improvement over stock. About a year ago, I switched to Morimoto projectors in modified H4 housings with clear glass lenses, and 4500K HID bulbs. That combo blows away what I had before. Very sharp cut-off, very nicely tapered light distribution across the focal width, and very good CRI.
You've mentioned that anything from 4500K to 6000K works rather well, and it does.
However, I find that at anything over about 5000 my eyes start picking up more and more "blue", and the color rendering of objects as my eyes perceive them starts to drop pretty quickly. At 6000k, stop signs have a very distinct purple appearance and green tree leaves have a very bluish-gray look to them. I have 4500K HID headlights which render colors very well to me, but I also have 6000K rated (though I suspect they may be as high as 6500K) LED off-road lights that, while they work, I don't like nearly as much. For the life of me I don't know why it's darn near impossible to find affordable LED off-road lights closer to 4500K. It's seems that the increase emitter costs for the manufacturers would be minimal in bulk. Perhaps no more than an extra $1 - $2 per emitter, and I'd gladly pay the resulting increase to get a more neutral or warmer BIN. Others may not be as sensitive as I am to the difference. At any rate, I wish there was a nationwide ban on selling any headlight bulb with a color temp higher than 6000K. Nothing more irritating than some yeahoo with "Hyper Blue" bulbs shining in my eyes and destroying my night vision.
I'm curious if you could provide some information on how color temp affects CRI (all other things being equal) that may benefit some of the guys here.
Perhaps another helpful bit of info would be to explain lumen ratings and to compare lumen output to more common everyday lights most people would encounter. Most guys here get hung up on wattage, not knowing that wattage is a power consumption rating, not a light production rating, or that two bulbs of the same wattage can have significantly different lumen ratings. Granted, the two are related, but my 35 watt HIDs produce many more lumens than a typical 55 watt halogen. I just bought a new work light by Ryobi that runs off of their 18v batteries. 20 watt rating and 1700 lumen output. I love it!
Here's a shot of the HIDs when I was trying to get them aimed. Very bright, even when competing with the parking lot light in the foreground.
Bi Xenon real world003
A pic of my flashlight collection from about 4 years ago.
Thank you for posting all of this information. There is so much MISinformation floating around on these forums that it's nice to finally have things substantiated with specific and direct references.
You're welcome
Originally Posted by macgyver35
You've mentioned that anything from 4500K to 6000K works rather well, and it does.
However, I find that at anything over about 5000 my eyes start picking up more and more "blue", and the color rendering of objects as my eyes perceive them starts to drop pretty quickly. At 6000k, stop signs have a very distinct purple appearance and green tree leaves have a very bluish-gray look to them.
I personally prefer 4000-5000k, but if I said that was the reasonable limit, I'd be ruffling too many feathers out there.
Originally Posted by macgyver35
At any rate, I wish there was a nationwide ban on selling any headlight bulb with a color temp higher than 6000K. Nothing more irritating than some yeahoo with "Hyper Blue" bulbs shining in my eyes and destroying my night vision.
Unfortunately there is as much of a ban as there can be. Those bulbs are often labeled "for offroad use only" or some other disclaimer noting that they are not street legal, but it's usually in fine print, and people who are convinced that higher Kelvin is "better" or simply think it's cooler to have them will buy them regardless.
Originally Posted by macgyver35
I'm curious if you could provide some information on how color temp affects CRI (all other things being equal) that may benefit some of the guys here.
My next mission is to provide some info on bulbs in general since at this point I've only touched on housings. For example--too many guys buying Sylvania out there for my liking thinking that they're a quality product or that because Osram owns them that they're the same. Even though they are owned by Osram and use many of the same product names, they are significantly inferior in quality.
I will try to see what I can do regarding a CCT-CRI relationship. I'd also like to touch on info regarding specific wavelengths' impacts on nightvision which maybe you know something about as a flashlight geek. One example being 506 nm where scotopic sensitivity peaks. This wavelength of light can play some tricks on the eyes and isn't so great for viewing fine details, but has a very minor and very short-lived impact on human night vision; for that reason, I use light around this wavelength for as many of my dash/gauge lights as possible.
Originally Posted by macgyver35
Perhaps another helpful bit of info would be to explain lumen ratings and to compare lumen output to more common everyday lights most people would encounter. Most guys here get hung up on wattage, not knowing that wattage is a power consumption rating, not a light production rating, or that two bulbs of the same wattage can have significantly different lumen ratings. Granted, the two are related, but my 35 watt HIDs produce many more lumens than a typical 55 watt halogen. I just bought a new work light by Ryobi that runs off of their 18v batteries. 20 watt rating and 1700 lumen output. I love it!
Great point, and I will make an effort to add this information when I can. You are right--a lot of people don't, won't, or can't understand the difference between wattage, raw lumens, and effective lumens.
01-17-2015, 09:50 AM
